75. Taming Your Impostor Monster with Dr AJ Lauer

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"Culture is a representation of what our habits are on a daily basis. If we drop the habit, we are not building the culture we're wanting to see."

Dr AJ Lauer is a leadership and diversity educator, executive coach, and founder of Thriving IBIS Leadership Solutions. With two decades of experience across higher education, non-profit research, and STEM, she specialises in imposter syndrome, psychological safety, and helping organisations make more human-centred decisions. She is also the author of My Monster Mungo, an illustrated book for adults about the imposter phenomenon.

Topics we cover

✔︎ What the imposter phenomenon actually is — and why 82% of people experience it 

✔︎ How to build psychologically safe, inclusive teams where dissent and creativity are welcomed 

✔︎ Why burnout and perfectionism are connected — and how leaders can interrupt the cycle

Connect with Dr AJ Lauer

• Thriving IBIS Leadership Solutions: https://www.thrivingibis.com
• My Monster Mungo — illustrated book: https://www.thrivingibis.com/my-monster-mungo

Transcript

Welcome AJ Lauer

James Hodgson 0:02

Welcome to Humanism Now, a podcast about secular ethics, curiosity, and compassionate change. I'm your host, James Hodgson. Our guest today is Dr. A. J. Lauer, a leadership and diversity educator specialising in the development of STEM professionals and the founder of Thriving IBIS Leadership Solutions. With two decades of experience across higher education, non-profit research, and executive coaching, Dr. Lauer focuses on imposter syndrome and how to harness it, building inclusive and psychologically safe teams, and helping organizations make more human-centred decisions. I'm delighted to welcome Dr. Lauer to the podcast today to talk about how leaders can strengthen resilience, increase diversity and inclusion, and create spaces where people and performance thrive together. Dr. Lauer, thank you so much for joining us on Humanism Now.

How to spot and harness impostor phenomena

AJ Lauer 0:48

Thank you for having me, James. It's good to be here.

James Hodgson 0:50

Delighted to welcome you here, particularly around your work on imposter syndrome and how to overcome it, which I think is something we can all relate to. So, how does imposter syndrome typically manifest in the professionals and leaders that you work with?

AJ Lauer 1:03

There are three basic characteristics of the experience of the imposter phenomenon. And I will explain the phenomenon thing in a moment. The first is that you feel like you have fooled people in order to get where you are today. You don't actually have the qualities that it takes to be successful. And so the fact that you are getting the award, getting the promotion, whatever, is because you fooled whoever they are. The second is that you attribute your success to external factors. Again, maybe everybody else had a bad interview day and yours was okay. And so that's why you got the job, not because you were actually qualified for the job. And the third is that when they, whoever they are, figure out that you have fooled them, they're going to take away that success from you. So those are the three basic characteristics supported by loads of research at this point of what the impostor phenomenon experience is. You've heard me say imposter phenomenon a couple times. And so as we get started here, I just want to clarify the original research, 1978, identified that these impostor experiences are something that come up occasionally. They are a phenomena. They are not a syndrome. They are not something that is wrong with you. 82% of people experience imposter feelings at some point in their lives. And so it's not something that's wrong with us. In any other situation, something that 82% of the human population experienced, we would consider that to be a normal state, not a syndrome. But syndrome is easier to say, it's shorter, it's sexier for the media. And so that is what is caught on.

James Hodgson 2:32

Thank you. It's that's an important distinction as well. And that makes a lot of sense.

AJ Lauer 2:52

Well, so when you're not focusing on managing your impostor feelings, there are three basic, again, the rules of threes, right? So there are three basic ways that we tend to cope with these impostor feelings when they come up. We avoid completely, we run away, we don't put in for the job, we don't ask for the promotion, etc. We overcompensate and we lean on perfectionist tendencies. So we try and try and try. We make sure that the slide deck is perfect. We, you know, whatever, we comb through the spreadsheets to make sure there are no errors. And the third one is that we procrastinate. And so what we do there is we wait until the very last minute to do the thing with the impulse that what we're doing there is trying to make it so we can blame a failure if it happens on lack of time or lack of preparation rather than on something that's wrong with us. So in organizations, you can see how those three coping mechanisms could have massively negative impacts on the work that we're doing and on the ways that we are interacting with one another. Avoidance, overcompensation, and procrastination are all things that hurt business. It slows things down. When we are able to not only address our own individual experiences with the impostor phenomenon and keep ourselves out of those bad coping mechanisms and recognize situations in which we are more likely to put other people into that impostor feeling, we can decrease the prevalence of those coping mechanisms in our workplaces. And everything just gets so much healthier and faster and more efficient, and all the good things that we hope for in an organization or in a business.

James Hodgson 4:28

So for interesting. And I'm sure certainly as you've explained, both the causes and then I guess the results of this phenomenon, feeling complete, not just empathy, but absolute recognition of those things. I'm sure most listeners will be like, yeah, that's exactly what I do as well.

AJ Lauer 4:42

I I am in the 82%, yes.

James Hodgson 4:45

Exactly. Exactly. But it it's interesting as you talk there because it's very difficult to spot in other people or to stop and consider actually when else might somebody be feeling this and perhaps need that that nudge, that push to say what you've done is good enough, you know, and the and I guess that reassurance as well. Are there signs of that someone is is dealing with imposter syndrome?

AJ Lauer 5:03

It's not helpful when we look at someone and say, you're experiencing imposter feelings. Because then even if they aren't feeling like an impostor, we are basically putting it on them and saying you should feel like an imposter right now. And then if they weren't feeling it, then they're gonna spin out. So I typically, when I'm working with folks and organizations, focus less on realizing it when other people are experiencing it and more on just creating in general environments where we are not setting people up to experience the imposter feelings.

Building Resilience and Drawing Your Monster

James Hodgson 5:36

Yeah, that makes sense. I guess I guess my my thinking was more we always assume when we look at others that they seem completely in control and that they are absolutely confident in their ability and unaware that this this phenomenon can, as you say, easily rise up in in any of us. So and your work is about turning these feelings into resilience and also building team team culture. So how how do you go about creating the resilience and and strengthening teams through through these acknowledgements?

AJ Lauer 6:07

When I work with individuals, what I do is take them through a process of identifying what causes them to feel like an imposter at different times. And then we talk about how those impostor feelings in certain moments might actually be trying to protect us to keep us from feeling ashamed, to keep us from feeling not good enough. If I don't put in for the promotion, they can't tell me no, and then they can't make me feel like I'm not good enough to be moving up in my career, right? So what we do is we take those feelings and we kind of explore what it feels like in our bodies and we give ourselves a moment to envision how that might manifest as a part of ourselves. This is rooted in quite a few traditions, therapeutic and religious traditions, where we say that there are different parts of us that show up at different times to serve different functions, to protect us, to make us feel cozy, to make us take better care of the people around us, whatever those parts are functioning to do. We identify that part as an imposter monster. Now, not for everybody, it may not show up as an actual monster. However, it rhymes and it's cute, which means it's easy to remember, which is why we do it that way. So we start to interact with this person's monster and have them explore why that monster shows up at certain times and start to develop a better relationship with it so that when that monster, for example, my monster is named Borscht. So Borscht shows up. And rather than running away and overcompensating or avoiding, I look at him and I say, Oh, borscht, you're here. What do I need to know about this situation? What am I reacting to in this situation that's causing you to pop up on my shoulder? And then when I can take that pause, I can take myself out of the fight or flight mode of the imposter feelings and back into a more centered nervous system and more intellectual response to the situation. On Teams, it's about exploring all of that together and looking at how we can create situations in which we are not triggering one another, in which we are supporting one another, setting clear guidelines, and doing the things that we need to do to make our environment a little less imposter monster friendly.

James Hodgson 8:09

And for those on audio, I can see there is a acute monster on the mantle behind AJ there. Is that borscht?

AJ Lauer 8:17

That is borscht, yes.

James Hodgson 8:18

Okay, so he's he's constantly looking over your shoulder.

AJ Lauer 8:21

In a more friendly way than he was when when we first met. When we first met, he had fangs and claws and he was quite intimidating. But I've been working with him for years, and at this point it really is a little bit more friendly, which is why the one that you see behind me is has a shirt on that says iHeart Dr. AJ.

James Hodgson 8:35

Did so did you draw, you designed them, and then that and is this an exercise that you get people to do as well? Sort of actually draw what their monster looks like?

AJ Lauer 8:42

Yes. Yes. When I work with folks, we actually draw their monsters. This is I drew Borscht and then I sent him to an illustrator who could make him look good. So this is not what it looks like when I drew it. Uh, but we draw the monsters, we explore why they're showing up, what are they trying to protect you from, and all of that.

James Hodgson 9:00

I think that's fascinating. And I've I've heard of a similar process previously, but more naming the inner critic. But in previous iterations, it's had more of a uh human personality or persona. Do you think there's something in making it a monster that makes it more manageable to deal with?

AJ Lauer 9:17

I do think that it does, but some folks, when we do the exercise, their monster is a human. Right. I had one a couple years ago that was a balding white guy with a beer belly who was wearing like a wife beater shirt and standing with a beer and criticizing my client over their shoulder all the time. So most people are able to come up with some kind of monstery, creatury version, but a lot of people do come up with people.

James Hodgson 9:49

The other side of your work is about building inclusivity and creating both diverse teams but also psychologically safe spaces for teams to thrive. And I think we hear a lot about these terms and they immediately instill the perspective that you know people have their sort of assumptions about what they mean. So, from first principles, could you sort of explain for you what psychologically safe teams look like?

AJ Lauer 10:11

Psychologically safe teams look like spaces where at the very basic level, people feel like they can bring up any idea into the room that they can, which includes challenging ideas that are already in the room without fearing personal reprisal. So I can bring up a totally wacky idea just to throw something creative into the room, or I can say, I don't actually think that works, and nobody is going to come down on me. I'm not going to lose my job. I'm not going to be shunned in my group. That's really the the nugget of psychological safety.

James Hodgson 10:48

It seems as though we live in times where that idea of particularly with within groups and not just in workplace groups where you're probably likely to have more diversity of opinion or you should encourage more diversity of opinion, but also general groups, friendship groups, you know, community organizations like we're involved in here and the humanists, there is more of a drive towards sort of homogenous thinking. Do you think it's good to set up boundaries and frameworks for that? And so say, well, as with anything, there are limits to what we think is suitable within this group. Or do you think that the best place to start is saying, no, people should be free to raise whatever is on their mind without that fear?

Team Exercises That Make Dissent Safer

AJ Lauer 11:23

So when you start, I think it really helps to have very clear guidelines as to what is the culture we are establishing here, what is acceptable, how do we bring up ideas, all of that. For groups that are a little bit more mature, those strict guidelines don't necessarily work as well unless I'm coming into the team and they're already in chaos and they're in trouble. Then we go back and we put in some pretty clear guidelines. For most situations, it's more about how do we nudge the culture to be more supportive of everyone that enters into the space. And the reason that psychological safety and diversity are so paired is that in more diverse groups, there are a broader range of ideas, right? Because we have different life experiences. And so it can be actually a little bit more challenging to establish that psychological safety in that group because people don't know if, again, back to the imposter syndrome, people don't know if the things that they are contributing are worthy of the group. Whereas in more homogenous groups, you look around the room and we assume that everybody's thinking the same way we are. So it's much less scary to bring up an objection or an observation because you assume that somebody else in the room is also making the observation. So it's it's all very nuanced and complicated, but it's also a lot of fun.

James Hodgson 12:40

Could you give some examples of of practical exercises perhaps that you would use to encourage that? Because I'm thinking, you know, if you're particularly in a workplace environment, if you're going into a workplace culture where there's a clear hierarchy and perhaps they haven't had that culture of openness, sharing ideas, diversity of viewpoints and opinions, to suddenly say, okay, we're going to instill this now is a huge step. And I imagine people would still feel very nervous and anxious from a reasonable point of view, not just that they're inner imposter. If they they've had a culture previously where they might fear that, you know, saying the wrong thing, it may not get them fired, but it might mean that they don't have opportunities down the line or they're not listened to later on. So, you know, entering a more, let's call it a tight culture.

AJ Lauer 13:21

What are some of the practical ways that you can start to introduce this idea of psychological safety and the ability for people to share a So one of the activities that I really like to take teams through is assigning a devil's advocate and having the devil's advocate rotate each meeting. That person's job in that meeting is to challenge every idea that comes up. And because it's an assigned role, we know that that person is supposed to be doing that. We don't hold it against them because they are fulfilling their role. By giving everybody in the room a chance to be the devil's advocate at some point, we give everybody the chance to play with what it's like to challenge what's being said in the room. And we also give everybody else the chance to be challenged by that person. So as an initial exercise, we are able to just start some acclamation to the idea that ideas can be challenged. That is typically a fun one that really drives some pretty quick change. Something else you can do is uh agreements. So you could do, you know, do you agree with the decision we just made? Thumbs down, sideways, thumbs up. And if you get a certain number of thumbs down or sideways, then you have to pause and you have to talk about it some more. So just some guardrails to start to allow space for folks to disagree without any potential negative consequences.

James Hodgson 14:48

Does experimenting with anonymity help as well when you're testing this out in teams? You know, is there any research behind, you know, if people hear an idea and they know who it's from, they perceive it differently than if they hear an idea anonymously?

AJ Lauer 15:02

Yes. There is absolutely research about how we perceive ideas that are put forth and whose voices are heard more frequently in rooms. Pretty much what the data says is that anybody who has a minoritized identity within that space is going to have fewer ideas recognized. So as far as putting things forward anonymously, though, I struggle with that a little bit because I I also want the folks who have minority identities who are already struggling to get the credit when they have the good ideas. Because when we just anonymize it, then people are just going to assume that it's the loudest person, typically the loudest persons in the room's idea rather than the quieter or the woman or the person of color or the person with a disability or whatever.

James Hodgson 15:45

So, how can leaders ensure that different needs, backgrounds, perspectives are being meaningfully considered and taken into account when making decisions?

Inclusion Habits Burnout And Capacity

AJ Lauer 15:52

One of the things that I always encourage leaders to do is to really pay attention to the dynamics in the room. Pay attention to who says the idea first. And if that idea gets picked up by somebody else and it's given credit to someone else. So, say a woman in the room states an idea and five minutes later, gentleman in the room repeats the idea and everybody's like, oh, this is such a great idea. As the leader, it is my responsibility to say, yes, I loved the way that she framed that a couple of minutes ago. I would love to hear more about what her thoughts were on. As leaders, if we throw the attention back, but it does, it takes paying attention and it does take energy. So a lot of people struggle with it a bit. One of the other things I like to encourage leaders to do is actually to take a step back and let the room manage themselves. And so a fun way to do that is to appoint the leader as the note taker for the meeting. Because when you are taking notes, you are less likely to be actively contributing. And so if the leader removes themselves and says, I'm gonna take notes today, you all have the conversation, they're removing that power dynamic from the room and allowing other people to float up to the surface. So that's something else to play with.

James Hodgson 17:01

In terms of teams, the organizations that you work with, where do you see that teams tend to fall short when they are really trying to build engagement?

AJ Lauer 17:08

Human beings are really bad at developing habits. And so for the most part, what I see is that people will start to try to build the habits that make for inclusive workplaces, that make for that psychological safety. And they get really excited about it for a month and then they lose the habits. So we really need to figure out how to keep them doing the habits that build the culture because culture is a representation of what our habits are on a daily basis, right? And so if we drop the habit, then we are not building the culture that we're wanting to see.

James Hodgson 17:40

So I know another area that you focus on is is burnouts and management. I'm interested to see in how, again, focusing on these ideas of kind of psychological safety, inclusivity, how that also affects like workload, work-life balance, and burnout amongst teams.

AJ Lauer 17:54

When we have the psychological safety built up, then we have the ability to say, I can't take anything else on. You know, I'm working in science and tech, and so it's very fast-paced. It is how quickly can we get the product out? How quickly can we respond to our customer? It's fast. It can be really scary to say, I can't take anything else on. But when we have worked with our teams, worked with our managers to develop that good relationship, that psychological safety, we have the space to push back a little bit. Burnout is interesting because often the reason that it manifests is because we are working so hard to prove ourselves as good enough. Back to the imposter syndrome thing, right? We are working so hard to show that we deserve the promotion, we deserve the project, we are the best at whatever it is that we do. And so we have to be able also to recognize in ourselves when we are having those habits that are going to drive ourselves toward burnout. And managers need to be able to recognize when people are doing things that are going to drive them toward burnout and be willing to stop them. We often reward perfectionism, we reward working really hard. And so managers can look at that and be like, wow, this person's getting so much done. But in the end, it benefits no one when we burn out.

James Hodgson 19:10

Yeah, it's very telling. All my time working in companies and teams, the idea that you would to say to someone, I don't have capacity for that, or I'm too busy for that, it's seen as such a negative thing to say, or something, you know, something you really shouldn't admit that you don't have time to do something, as though it's somehow insulting to the rest of the team. That's that's always been my perception that you're sort of suggesting that other people might have time to do it. So it's, you know, it can be pushed onto them.

Measuring Culture Outcomes And Flexibility

AJ Lauer 19:36

A way to manage that a little bit is rather than saying, I don't have time to do this, to say, if I take this on, which of these other priorities do you want me to drop?

James Hodgson 19:46

With most organizations and teams, they're usually interested in what they can measure. So how do you advise that teams measure the impact, well-being, safety, and how does that reflect then in measurable terms, in terms of performance, if we're feeling that people are more psychologically safe, feeling included, and of course avoiding burnout?

Humanising workspaces

AJ Lauer 20:04

There are a variety of metrics that you can use if you just Google around, you can find tests that people have designed to assess these things. But basically, what happens is that when we build psychological safety, we build retention of employees so we don't have as much turnover because people want to stay in a place where they feel good and they feel respected, right? Which is a huge money savings for any company because hiring is so expensive. Beyond the retention, we will also see that productivity increases and innovation increases. So you can look at have we just been doing the same thing forever, or are we starting to be innovative? Are we starting to bring in more creative ideas and more creative people to move us forward? Those are, I mean, they're a little wishy-washy. They're not super tangible, but I think anybody can feel that in an environment, just in the everyday functioning of the team.

James Hodgson 21:02

I've been reading a lot around like humanizing the workplace recently, this idea of like humanistic business and how to design organizations or or design a workplace structure which which really does suit people.

AJ Lauer 21:15

Absolutely.

James Hodgson 21:16

And one of the big areas I I I've noticed recently is actually the idea of the eight-hour workday is one where working way longer, more than 40 hours a week, most people anyway. But actually, you know, to try and find, you know, experiment to play with it as as as individuals as to what works best for you. You know, which are your peak hours actually can you have a much better time doing three hours of really intensive work versus eight hours where you may easily get distracted. Do you work in terms in do you does your work cover that area as well in terms of how to structure work to make it more humanistic?

AJ Lauer 21:47

I mean, everything that we've talked about in the last 30 minutes is basically that, right? We're talking about respecting people and making sure that they are able to be and bring their ideas to the workplace. One of the ways that I recommend that organizations do this is by focusing on outcomes rather than we've Call it button chair, you know, button front of the computer. So, well, hopefully not your butt in front of the computer. Hopefully it's your face in front of the computer. But how much time are you spending working? You know, let's focus on getting stuff done. If someone can get stuff done in three hours and they meet your expectations and they do what the team needs, there's no reason for them to work five more hours. At that point, we're just driving them toward burnout and like you said, toward distraction rather than actually moving us forward.

James Hodgson 22:33

Yeah. But again, I think it comes back to this point about it, you know, people need to be seen to be busy. Uh and busyness becomes the currency in a lot of organizations rather than, as you say, outcomes. And the worry is you as an individual or as a team become known for, well, they can get things done quickly. That means we just need to give them more things to do.

AJ Lauer 22:52

Yeah. And that's where it is the responsibility of the manager to say, yeah, the reason we get things done quickly is because we are respecting how our people work. One of the ways that we have been seeing a move away, a very strong move away, at least in the US, from respecting how people work is this return to work trend that we have. During the height of the pandemic, so many people found that they worked so much more efficiently at home, or that the ways, you know, not having to commute, being closer to your kids' school, being closer to other caregiving responsibilities physically rather than going into the office was had untold benefits on people, especially women, people with disabilities. And this return to work trend has been really hard on folks. It's been really hard. So, how can we as managers, you know, maybe you have the return to work mandate and there's nothing you can do about that, but how can you work other flexibility into the way that you manage your people so that they can do their real life and their work?

James Hodgson 23:53

Plenty to think about. Returning to imposter phenomenon, I can also see behind AJ there's a book on the counter there, My Monster Mungo. Could you tell us about your book?

AJ Lauer 24:04

Yeah, My Monster Mungo is an illustrated book for adults about imposter syndrome. I really love to play with folks. I mean, we talked about drawing your monster earlier. I think that there is so much value in taking difficult concepts and letting people play with them a little bit. Let's engage a different part of your brain. And so by using a storytelling technique to talk about imposter syndrome, what I've done is freed up that imaginative space so that folks can feel a little bit less stressed about it. But also, it's a short book. It's not one of those huge long business tomes where they say the same thing over and over again for 200 pages. And by chapter three, you've basically got the point. I wanted to give people something that was short, that was a little bit fun, that is still rooted in loads of research, but where you're learning maybe without even knowing that you're learning. So it's a it's a cheerful, playful way to look at our experiences with the the imposter phenomenon.

Changing Minds

James Hodgson 25:05

And we will include links uh to the book and to all of Dr. Lauer's work in the show notes. Before we go, we have our standard closing question, which we ask all of our guests, what is something which you've changed your mind on and what inspired that change?

AJ Lauer 25:18

I changed my mind on romance novels. So, like I think probably many of your guests, I was raised in a pretty conservative Catholic household. And there were a lot of messages about what romance was, what sexuality was allowed, wasn't allowed, all of that. And so I grew up thinking that romance novels were just this horrible thing. How could people spend their time that way? All of those kinds of messages. It's trashy, you know, you should be reading good fiction, whatever. And then I lived in Miami for graduate school and for a couple years after, and I was in Miami for hurricanes Katrina, Wilma, and Rita. And during hurricane, I think it was Wilma, I went home with my friend who lived near campus. And we lost power for a week. And the only things to read in the house were Harry Potter and romance novels. And I had already read Harry Potter, so I was like, all right, well, you know, like let's see what happens. And so I read these novels, and they were, they were mystery novels that also included that very human part of living, which is interacting with other people and maybe developing a romantic attachment, maybe not. And I just found, you know, from a humanist perspective, that is a part of the human experience that most of us experience, that most of us seek to experience, but so much of our literature just like ignores it. And so over the years, I really developed an appreciation for the communication struggles that were represented in romance novels that I didn't find in other places. The family relationships, just like everyday living that was represented. In 2020, when we were having really intense racial struggles in the US, I mean, they're always here, but they really blew up in 2020. I spent four or six months only reading romance novels that were written about people of color. And I did that very intentionally because all of the messaging that I was getting from the media, everything that everybody was talking about was about violence against people of color. And I could feel my brain starting to slip into this is what their lives are like. And I don't like it when I can feel a bias starting to seed in my brain. I didn't want to see a new person of color and wonder what kind of violence they had experienced in their lives or worry about, you know, what violence they might experience today. Yeah. Even though that's a very realistic part of their lives, I didn't want that to be my whole picture. And so I spent four or six months reading romance novels about people of color living their lives, going to school, running businesses, having children, having conflict, recovering from conflict. And I just seeded my brain with more positive messaging. And I just don't know that there's a more efficient way to do that than to spend time in the happily ever after kind of space. So I changed my mind on romance novels. I'm a big proponent of them. I think that they're good for people to read as someone who cares about people and cares about the human experience. There's part of the human experience that is represented there that I don't see as frequently in other places.

James Hodgson 28:28

That's a wonderful way to end. Dr. AJ Lauer, thank you so much for joining us on Humanism Now.

AJ Lauer 28:33

Thanks so much, James.

James Hodgson 28:34

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