45. Richard Norman on What is Humanism For?

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Professor Richard Norman
• 1:41 A Journey to Humanism
• 4:25 Defining Humanism and Core Beliefs
• 10:42 The Value of Identifying as Humanist
• 13:27 Recognising Erich Fromm
• 16:41 "Values as the New Religion"
• 21:21 Climate Change, AI and Future Challenges
• 25:21 Best Question from School Children
• 27:38 What is Humanism For?
• 28:24 Changing Mind on Interfaith Dialogue

Transcript

James Hodgson: 0:01

Welcome to the Humanism Now podcast, a podcast on humanistic values, secular ethics and spreading curiosity and compassion. I'm your host, james Hodgson. Here at the Humanism Now podcast, we often explore the values, actions and community of humanists, but a question still lingers what's the point of humanism? Today, I'm joined by one of the world's leading thinkers on humanist philosophy, professor Richard Norman, whose new book what is Humanism For tackles that exact question head-on.

James Hodgson: 0:32

Professor Richard Norman is a retired lecturer in philosophy, formerly professor at the University of Kent. Richard is a patron of Humanist UK, a member of the steering committee of the Humanist Climate Action Group, a member of the Humanist of the humanist climate action group, a member of the humanist dialogue network and also a humanist school speaker. He has written extensively on humanism, including on humanism in 2004, updated in 2012, understanding humanism, co-authored with andrew copson and luke donnellan, and his upcoming book, what, which is simply called what Is Humanism For? And it is on that last vital, simple but important question that I'm delighted to say that Professor Norman joins us today on Humanism Now. Professor Richard Norman, thank you so much for joining us.

Prof. Richard Norman: 1:16

Thank you, pleased to be involved.

James Hodgson: 1:19

So I'd love to get to this question of what is humanism for? Um, very intriguing title for the book and also subject of your fantastic keynote talk at the humanist uk convention this year. Um, but perhaps if we could lay the groundwork a little, you've written widely on the subject of humanism over years. What first drew you to focus on humanism as a topic of research?

Prof. Richard Norman: 1:47

It was a long process with stages, a journey, if you like. I grew up as a Christian. I used to. For the first 19 or 20 years of my life I regularly attended church and was very committed to it, and the more I thought about it, the more I had doubts about it and I finally broke from it. Basically. I think it was when I went to be a student at university, which is often a turning point in people's lives, and I realized that there were many people who didn't share that perspective and that helped me to put it into focus and to realize that actually I couldn't justify the religious beliefs which I thought I had advised by.

Prof. Richard Norman: 2:24

I didn't immediately identify myself as a humanist, but I joined what was then the British Humanist Association, I suppose about 10 years later, something like that. Basically, I just got fed up with the sort of pervasive cultural assumption that everybody's a Christian and that's the default position. So I joined British Humanist Association. Then I wasn't very active for some time, but then in the 1990s I helped to set up a local humanist group Kent Humanists, where I live and I was very involved with that. And then also, right about the year 2000, I helped to set up the Humanist Philosophers Group got me very involved in things at a national level and I've been pretty involved since then. So that was the stages of the process.

James Hodgson: 3:15

And then in terms of actually focusing on humanism within your professional research work. How did you first come to be involved there and what was this in terms of focusing professionally on humanism in your research work at the university? How did that emerge and how supportive was the University of Kent?

Prof. Richard Norman: 3:32

Well, it wasn't really a part of my professional career. My involvement in the humanist philosophers group was just a few years before I retired as a full-time academic, though I continued part-time after that. So it was a bit of a transition on my part really to start writing about humanism. It was a departure from the sort of thing that I'd focused on as an academic philosopher. I had written a lot about ethics, the foundations of morality and so forth, and certainly I did that from a humanist perspective, but I wasn't really writing about and researching humanism as such. So I was taking advantage of retirement to write in a more popular vein and for a wider audience, I hoped, and focus much more on what I was interested in respect to humanism.

James Hodgson: 4:30

So perhaps we should start, then, by defining our terms, because one of the questions that we've received a lot, and I think there isn't still an agreed upon answer is just to define humanism. So, given there are many ways that humanism is described, what is your preferred definition of humanism and how did you come to that you mentioned earlier?

Prof. Richard Norman: 4:44

that I'm a humanist school speaker and I've done, especially in the last, your preferred definition of humanism, and how did you come to that? You mentioned earlier that I'm a humanist school speaker and I've done especially in the last couple of years, I've done a lot of speaking in primary schools, which is a good way of getting one to focus on trying to present a clear definition of humanism, simplifying it and putting it as clearly as possible. What I say to kids when I speak is that humanism is the belief in trying to live a good life and be a good person without religion the simple definition that I offer to seven-year-olds, ten-year-olds, and that will be my starting point. There's a lot more to be said, of course, but I think it's helpful.

James Hodgson: 5:23

Yes, but it's nice to be able to have a short summary, from which then more questions will undoubtedly arise and then more beliefs can be added on. And I think, to come back to the subject of our conversation, your latest book what Is Humanism For really does a fantastic job of setting out those core views, beliefs, ethics that form part of humanism, and I think you explained very well that actually this is a belief system that's without dogma or creed that others may have, but there are still some general beliefs that a humanist will hold. So, given that the definitions are not so strict as they might be in other belief systems or worldviews, what did you find were some of the core beliefs or assumptions that you think it's fair to say that most humanists share?

Prof. Richard Norman: 6:13

The starting point would be naturalism the recognition that this world is the only world there is, that there is not some separate supernatural or non-natural domain we interact with which might be the domain of a divinity or of immortal souls or whatever. Naturalism is the starting point. The next point I'd emphasize is the fact that, as human beings, as part of the natural world, we are beings who naturally live in communities, crucial for the kinds of beings that we are. What that means is that, as communal beings, we share a language, and it's our possession of a shared language that enables us to understand the world and make sense of the world and give meaning to our lives.

Prof. Richard Norman: 7:03

It's not only that we're members of communities, but also and this is a corollary of naturalism we are part of the natural world. We're not something set apart from it. So we're not only members of a human social community, but a community in an important sense with the rest of nature, and that's an important dimension of how it is that we give meaning to our lives as well, through our understanding of our relatedness to something beyond ourselves, both at a social level and also as part of the natural world, values that are not just creations of individual human beings, but are built into our life within a community. Communal life, social life is impossible without values of cooperation, kindness and compassion, fairness, justice and so forth. And that's, I would say, the basis for the humanist values, which are independent of any religious belief or any divine authority. They're part and parcel of our lives as members of communities and as part of the natural world. So those would be some of the key things that I would focus on.

James Hodgson: 8:17

And do you think then, there is a clear distinction between the naturalism, which is the foundation of humanism, and any space for supernatural belief? Do you think that there's allowed any? You know, I come across lots of people who say they are, you know, not religious but spiritual, and perhaps they leave a little bit of space there for something outside of the natural. Or do you think it's a fairly distinct line really?

Prof. Richard Norman: 8:41

I think it's a fuzzy line. As you say, there are people who describe themselves as spiritual but not religious. The trouble is that the word spiritual is such a vague term. On one hand it could just mean having some kind of depth and meaning to your life, and of course I hope all humanists have a spiritual dimension in that sense. But it very quickly shifts into in that sense, but it very quickly shifts into trying to hang on to certain dimensions of religiosity. The idea that to be spiritual you must believe in some kind of immortal spirit or whatever is pretty vague. If necessary I'm prepared to use the word spiritual or spirituality, but I prefer to use that language, but I don't think it's terribly helpful.

Prof. Richard Norman: 9:22

The other thing to be said is that there are religious people who say that they accept naturalism. They don't believe in the supernatural in the sense of some spooky other world. They say the divine is a part of the natural world, the dimension of the natural world, the element of purposiveness and personality that's somehow built into the natural world. Again, I'm never quite sure what that means really. I mean, I think I can make sense of that idea. It obviously is not an idea that I share, but it's one that I respect because it's an attempt to present religious belief in a plausible way, and it's something that I'm interested in. It's not a sharp divide, I think, especially when we're talking about Christians and other religious believers who try to reconcile their religious beliefs with a scientific basis and shared human experience. But for me, I try to sharpen up the dividing line.

James Hodgson: 10:18

No, thank you for explaining that.

James Hodgson: 10:19

That makes a lot of sense and I think, yeah, this is one of the challenges that I think we come across and I think your book sets out to address is that a lot of the times these aren't really defining features, but more a pool of beliefs, guiding principles that perhaps most humanists are subscribed to most of, and it's not necessarily without dogma.

James Hodgson: 10:37

It does leave space for debate, which is a good thing as well. But I think the other challenge we come across often is that a lot of these beliefs in our modern society seem like common sense. I think naturalism to an extent to most people is as you say, even those who are religious now sort of subscribe to some level of naturalism, being kind, that we exist in communities, that we should be compassionate, that we should use science where possible, and so one of the other areas of pushback that I find probably more from non-religious people is that all sounds great, but why do you need the label of being a humanist? These seem like barely common sense beliefs and attributes. So what do you see as the value of identifying explicitly as humanist, both for individuals and also for us as community groups in building a broader movement?

Prof. Richard Norman: 11:27

Sure? Yeah, I think that's an interesting question. I mean, the simple answer is that the word humanism is just a convenient shorthand for talking about the kind of perspective that we've just been describing. I think it's the best word to use because it's a positive word. It goes beyond atheism or agnosticism. It recognizes that we need a positive set of beliefs and values to guide our lives and it recognizes that at the heart of those beliefs and values is the recognition that it's on the basis of our shared humanity that we need to try to understand the world and think about how to live in it, that we need to try to understand the world and think about how to live in it, but we don't have recourse to any non-human authority. So the word humanism helpfully flags that up and signals that.

Prof. Richard Norman: 12:13

It's interesting that you raise the question as to whether we need the label. I have four grown-up kids and I was asking them just recently would you describe yourselves as humanists? And three of the four said yes. We accept humanist beliefs and values but wouldn't actually say I'm a humanist. And I think there's a certain resistance to being pigeonholed and labeled, and that's fair enough.

Prof. Richard Norman: 12:36

I have to say that the fourth of the four did say yes, I'm a humanist. So my response to them was well, that's fine, I brought you up to think for yourselves and I'm glad you don't all think the same, but it's a convenient label. Beyond that, as you just implied, it's not just a label. It's also, for many people, a word for a community that people feel it's important to be part of, to share our thoughts, to draw strength from talking to other humanists, working with them in common, whilst recognizing the need not to get put back into a pigeonhole and not confined to some belief system which you feel you have to endorse. Nevertheless, I think that there's a value in the word and, more importantly, a value in being part of a humanist community.

James Hodgson: 13:33

You reference several prominent humanist thinkers in what Is Humanism For, but one person who features quite prominently is Eric Fromm, which is a name we haven't actually discussed here on the podcast previously. Who was Eric from, and how did his work help shape or deepen the understanding of humanism?

Prof. Richard Norman: 13:56

I think he's a very interesting writer. He grew up in Frankfurt in Germany and was very active between the two world wars as part of the Frankfurt School, a group of sociologists, psychologists, who were trying to draw in an undogmatic way on Marxism and Freudian psychoanalysis and look at the new connections between those two belief systems. He was part of the diaspora of intellectual Germans who left Germany in the 1930s for obvious reasons, settled in the United States, became an academic there and also a practicing psychoanalyst and a very prolific author as well. I don't think he was very actively involved in the humanist movement, but he was certainly given recognition by the American Humanist Association with their award for Humanist of the Year. He certainly described himself as a humanist.

Prof. Richard Norman: 14:47

What I find particularly attractive in him is his attempt to base ethics on a psychology of human needs which goes beyond just our physical needs and recognizes that there are certain psychological needs that are fundamental to us as human beings.

Prof. Richard Norman: 15:05

One of the things that he talks about is the human need for what he calls a frame of orientation and devotion. That's quite a mouthful, but what he's saying there is. Unlike non-human animals, we can't just live by instinct. We necessarily, as thinking beings, as language-using beings try to make sense of our world. We hold beliefs about the nature of the world and of how we ought to live within it. So, though we don't need a dogmatic system, we do need some kind of coherent framework within which to locate our beliefs, to locate our values and think them through in a consistent and coherent sort of way, and I think that notion of a framework, a frame of orientation and devotion, a frame of beliefs and values, is a helpful one to describe the sense in which humanism is not a dogmatic creed, but it's more than just a random set of arbitrary and disconnected beliefs. So, in that sense, I found him useful as a portal through which to answer the question what is humanism for? It's something that we need as thinking beings who need that kind of framework.

James Hodgson: 16:23

Yeah, I think it's a really interesting way to look at it and it really does set the tone for the rest of the book. It's a very helpful introduction in terms of how to think about the question, which is very helpful, and you open chapter four with a quote from another of the thinkers that you mentioned, linda woodhead, which I found really fascinating, and I'm sure I can't recall exactly when this was said, but it was that values are the new religion, which is a really interesting statement and seems to be probably very interesting, more and more relevant with current affairs recently. Do you agree with the statement values are the new religion?

Prof. Richard Norman: 17:01

It's not how I'd put it. It was the title of a series of lectures that she gave the Cadbury Lectures, the University of Birmingham, a few years ago I think three or four years ago and it was a very interesting set of lectures. I wouldn't say values are the new religion, not in a literal sense, and it was a very interesting set of lectures. I wouldn't say values as a new religion, not in a literal sense, and I'm not sure that she means that literally. But there's an important sense in which shared values are replacing religion as a way of identifying the nature of our shared identity as a society. For example, if we're thinking about what holds our society together as a cohesive society, the basis for social cohesion, whereas in the past that might have been a shared religion.

Prof. Richard Norman: 17:45

In this country it was thought we're a Christian country and that's what defines us as a society. Notoriously, people regularly used to answer the question. When the question what is your religion was first introduced into the census, there was a tendency for people to say well, I suppose I must be Christian because I live here. Thanks partly to the awareness raising of British Humanist Association, now Humanist UK, people are more inclined to think beyond that and that's why, over time, the census results have changed. But for centuries that was thought to be the nature of our identity as a society, that we're a Christian society. That's no longer feasible, no longer a coherent and possible position, and I think that the turn to values is, in part, the turn to values as a basis for identity, our communal identity, also our personal identity, but, importantly, the basis for a shared identity.

Prof. Richard Norman: 18:44

Again, referring back to your reference to the fact that I do quite a lot of speaking in schools, schools all have to have their school values. Typically, when I go into schools you can see these values written up on the wall and so forth. A lot of the schools I've been visiting lately have been Church of England schools Very interesting. But the values that they display as the values of the school are what I would call humanist values, indeed human values, shared human values of compassion, respect, fairness, honesty and so forth.

Prof. Richard Norman: 19:21

And we're in this rather position where Christian institutions, including Christian schools, define their identity in ways which actually aren't distinctively Christian at all but are really based on these shared human values. It's an odd sort of process, but I think it is something that's happening and that we should welcome, that it's those shared values that are recognized as what hold us together as a society, rather than some particular religious, and of course that goes along with the fact that, from a religious point of view, our society is becoming more and more diverse, partly as a result of waves of immigration, and along with that goes a greater diversity of religions Islam, hinduism, buddhism and so forth and given that diversity, which is something to be welcomed, I do believe that there is something important in the idea of social cohesion, but it's in values rather than in religious belief that it should be located.

Prof. Richard Norman: 20:24

So that's the sense in which I would endorse the idea of values as the new religion. There's really something that replaced religion in that respect.

James Hodgson: 20:34

Yeah, and so do you see that shift towards a humanistic secular ethics within society?

Prof. Richard Norman: 20:43

Yes, within our own society. Of course, from a global point of view it's a very, very mixed picture, and in some parts of the world, religion is on the rise, it has to be said, especially parts of the world where Christianity and Islam are very much in competition with one another and very proselytizing and evangelizing. But in Western societies, western European societies in particular, I think that the picture is much more towards a shared set of humanistic values, as what holds us together.

James Hodgson: 21:19

And you've mentioned a couple of times being a school speaker and I know that you're very active and involved with humanist climate action as well, and so all of this kind of raises questions around the future of humanism and whether we should see humanism as an evolving practice. So what are some of the key areas that you think will become more existential to humanist belief in years going forward? Particularly having spoken to children or young people and also being involved, as mentioned, in climate campaigning, I imagine that's something which we'll see has a lot more prevalence.

Prof. Richard Norman: 21:46

Environmental issues, climate change, decline in biodiversity and the link between them. I do think that these are crucial, and one of the reasons that we set up Humanist Climate Action a few years ago was to try and galvanize the humanists and people within the humanist movement to taking that much more seriously. I mean, it's always been a dimension of humanism. One of the people that I mention in the book is Julian Huxley, who was the first president of the British Humanist Association when it took on that name in the 1950s About 1960, I think it was actually and he was someone who was very committed to the importance of environmentalism and concern for the natural environment as a practicing biologist, of course. So there's always been a dimension of humanism.

Prof. Richard Norman: 22:32

We really are in a crisis when it comes to climate change and environmental decline. Part of the reason for setting up Humanist Climate Action was just to bring home to our fellow humanists how serious our crisis is. I mean, it really is desperate. You know and you only have to look at the obvious signs of climate change the fact that we've had three unprecedented heat waves this summer. Globally, temperatures are rising and they're bringing with them much more erratic weather patterns, and you only have to look at the facts of the melting polar ice caps, the melting of glaciers and so forth. It really is a crisis and it can't be emphasized too strongly how important it is for humanists, along with everybody else, to take action on it. We're trying to get that across to people, and it's something that certainly resonates when one goes into schools to talk. It's that young generation that are much more aware of it, but they've got to stick with that and we have to do our bit as an older generation to try to ensure that we don't bequeath to them a world in which the situation is so desperate that it's beyond recall.

Prof. Richard Norman: 23:37

Yeah, I would give a big priority to that as something that humanists should collectively address with all the energy at their disposal. Looking forward, I don't know. I mean, obviously, issues about AI are becoming increasingly pressing as social and political issues. I don't know what to say about them. It's not something that I properly understand, but it's something that humanists, along with everybody else, will need to grapple with. Where does that leave our notion of the human? That's, of course, one of the more fundamental questions that it raises, but also very practical questions about the nature of our communication with one another, how we relate to one another, the effect that it's having on human communities and communal life and so forth. So there are big questions there which, like everything else, are not uniquely questions for humanists, but something that humanists should try to think about and to share their views about.

James Hodgson: 24:34

Yeah, thank you. We've had Laurie Marriott, who's obviously coordinating the Humanist Climate Action on the podcast, previously doing tremendous work along with yourself.

Prof. Richard Norman: 24:41

Yeah, I've worked very closely with her.

James Hodgson: 24:43

Yeah, she's terrific and increasingly more and more of the guests that we have, no matter what the subjects of the conversation. You know, climate is absolutely central, I think, to belief systems and values and action going forward and, yeah, we're definitely going to see that become more central, I think, to humanism and absolutely as well with AI and I know at the recent Humanist International Congress there was a declaration on AI signed and we're hoping to focus on that very soon on the podcast as well, because absolutely humanists need to be central and need to be thinking about and grappling with these issues and be central to the conversation. But we talked quite a bit about your time and I know you're very proud of your role as a humanist school speaker. Just before we wrap up, I wonder what are some of the most interesting questions that children have put forward about humanism?

Prof. Richard Norman: 25:31

It's pretty fascinating. As I say, a lot of it has been speaking in primary schools, so that's the full age range from five up to 10. It's wonderful when you're talking to the infant schools you get all sorts of questions. I usually introduce my talking about humanism by talking in personal terms about how I grew up. What I was saying earlier, about how I grew up as a Christian. My family put quite a lot of emphasis on that. So one of the classic questions I get two or three times and I say have you got any questions? What's the name of your kids? So that suggests they haven't quite got the point of what I was saying, but nevertheless it's very endearing. As they get older, especially in junior school, some of the children I speak to there are really on the ball Questions like what came before the Big Bang.

Prof. Richard Norman: 26:18

When I talk about the scientific basis of humanism, which I do more in junior schools, some of them are very alert to the questions there. I talk about evolution and the fossil evidence for evolution and I take in this fossil ammonite, and so one of the really impressive questions was you know, I take in this fossil ammonite, and so one of the really impressive questions was talking about how fossils give us an idea of the kinds of species that existed millions of years ago and are now extinct. And one of them, when I showed this fossil ammonite and then talked about what an ammonite might have looked like, asked well, how do we know what the fleshy parts of an ammonite would have been like if they haven't been fossilized? And that was a. That was a quite a an insightful question, and I had to talk there about comparative anatomy and so forth. So, yeah, you get you know, and the great thing about talking in in primary schools is that you get this whole spectrum of um of questions, from the endearing to the really sharp and on-the-ball questions.

Prof. Richard Norman: 27:17

It's a terrific experience, I have to say I always come out of school speaking in primary schools really energized.

James Hodgson: 27:25

I imagine you can't prepare because you never know quite what to expect.

Prof. Richard Norman: 27:28

That's right. Yes, that's right. Everyone loves school children.

James Hodgson: 27:30

Yeah, so bringing everything together. We've covered beliefs, values, the history and the future of humanism. So not to give away too much of the book. If you were to summarize it, professor Norman, what is humanism for?

Prof. Richard Norman: 27:47

It's to provide a framework for our beliefs and values, which we can share with one another and through which we can try to bring our beliefs and values into a coherent and rational form.

James Hodgson: 28:03

To hear the full, detailed answer of what Is Humanism For. I really cannot recommend the book highly enough. Please do seek out what is Humanism for by Professor Richard Norman. So before we go, our standard closing question Professor Norman, what is something which you've changed your mind on recently and what inspired that change?

Prof. Richard Norman: 28:23

In a way, this is the most difficult question because, thinking about it, I like to think that I have an open-minded person who's willing to change. But there's also something in the idea that the older you get, the more set in your ways you get when it comes to basic questions about humanism and religion. I've thought these things through over a lifetime and I don't think I'm going to change now, but there are changes in emphasis. Don't think I'm going to change now, but there are changes in emphasis, and I guess one of the things I mean it's a gradual change, but one of the things I've increasingly come to think about is the importance of dialogue between humanists and religious people.

Prof. Richard Norman: 29:00

We were talking earlier about the great diversity of forms that religious belief takes, from very naive and simplistic and crude versions to very sophisticated ones, which are often not that distant from humanism.

Prof. Richard Norman: 29:15

It's important for us as humanists, I think, not to stereotype religious believers and suppose that they are, and there's a tendency on the part of some humanists, I think, and some atheists to do so. It's very important to engage with people of all beliefs and to do that in different ways, but to both increase our own understanding of where they're coming from and hopefully help to increase their understanding of what humanism is and, again, not to stereotype it, and I think this links back to what I was saying earlier about the basis for a shared community. We're not very good at dialogue in the modern world, and especially if you look at the political world and the divisiveness of so much political discourse. I do think that we need to learn to talk to one another better and to disagree with one another in more fruitful ways. So I've come increasingly to recognize the importance of dialogue both with religious people and more generally recognize the importance of dialogue both with religious people and more generally.

James Hodgson: 30:17

I couldn't agree more. Professor Richard Norman, thank you so much for joining us on Humanism Now, thank you, and thank you for listening. If you enjoy the podcast, please do leave us a rating and review. It really helps more people find the show and feel free to share it with as many people as possible who are interested in humanistic values. If you would like to, you can support us on Patreon. It helps us reach more people and you can follow us on all social media at humanismnowpod you.