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Humanism Now
37. Rachael Reign on Coercive Control Beyond the Home: Protecting Cult Survivors
“Surviving isn’t just about leaving — it’s about learning to trust yourself again after someone else’s voice has lived in your head for years.” — Rachael Reign
In this powerful episode of Humanism Now, Rachael Reign, survivor and founder of Surviving Universal UK, shares her deeply personal story of escaping spiritual abuse and coercive control and her ongoing campaign to protect others.
As founder of Surviving Universal UK, Rachael supports other survivors of high-control groups and leads a growing campaign to amend Section 76 of the UK Serious Crime Act.
In this episode
- Rachael's journey into, and out of, UCKG
- What draws vulnerable young people into high-control groups
- How unpaid labour and spiritual obedience become normalised
- What led Rachael to walk away and how she supports other survivors
- The warning signs of cultic or coercively controlling groups
- Where UK law falls short in protecting against coercive control outside domestic settings
- How we can hold abusive systems accountable
- The role the public and policymakers can play in driving survivor-led legal reform
Surviving Universal UK
🔗Surviving Universal UK
📧 info@survivinguniversaluk.org
📸 @survivinguniversaluk
🎵 @survivinguniversaluk
Contact Rachael
🌳linktr.ee
🎤Speaker bookings - Rachael Reign
📸 @Msrachaelreign
Resources
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Welcome to the Humanism Now podcast. I'm your host, James Hodgson. In the UK, section 76 of the Serious Crime Act makes it a criminal offence to use controlling or coercive behaviour in intimate or family relationships. But for those trapped in high-control groups outside of the family, the law doesn't yet apply, leaving many vulnerable to manipulation, isolation and abuse without clear legal recourse. A growing campaign, backed by organisations like the Family Survival Trust, seeks to change that. It calls for the law to be expanded to protect people who are subjected to coercive control in group settings, where manipulation often goes unchallenged and unseen.
James Hodgson:Our guest today is at the forefront of this movement and sits on the campaign committee for this change.
James Hodgson:Racheal Reign is a survivor, a campaigner and the founder of Surviving Universal UK, a grassroots initiative supporting those impacted by high-control groups. Drawing from her lived experience, Rachael now leads national conversations on spiritual abuse, coercive control and survivor justice. Rachael story has featured on BBC Panorama and she is a trusted voice in the media, where she helps shape nuanced, survivor-led stories that centre on healing and accountability. Rachael Reign, thank you for joining us on Humanism Now.
Rachael Reign:Hi James, Thank you so much for having me. It's good to be here.
James Hodgson:So of course, I'd love to find out more about the campaign which you're working on, the tremendous work which you're currently doing, but I think it would be helpful to set the scene for how you came to be a campaigner in this space. Probably makes sense to begin at the beginning, so could you start by just sharing a bit about your upbringing and your time before joining UCKG.
Rachael Reign:So I joined when I was 13 years old in South London. I joined when I was 13 years old in South London. During my early years there wasn't any like huge disaster, like I wasn't in a gang, you know I wasn't riddled with bereavement, nothing huge like that. I didn't have the best or safest upbringing but I suppose there was a lot of room for outside influence. I grew up wanting to be part of something, feeling quite empty and I think the UCKG they saw me coming. To be honest, I was a regular, you know, 13 year old. I had a friendship group, you know I got up to a bit of trouble now and again, but I just had a lot of space that just had to be filled. I was ripe for this kind of thing. Really I think I was a good candidate for it.
James Hodgson:So you said you felt empty. Was this anything you were particularly seeking?
Rachael Reign:My upbringing was difficult in the sense that there wasn't a lot of structure that I craved. I want to say I was a feral child, but my mom will probably kill me um, but there wasn't any structure there, you know, and I grew up wanting routine, wanting calm, because my childhood was quite chaotic in a lot of senses. So I wanted a structure, a community, something definite, something clad, iron did you find that in the church?
James Hodgson:at least initially did it? It provide for you that structure and that community Absolutely.
Rachael Reign:When I first attended that Sunday, you know I wasn't looking for religion. I wasn't necessarily looking for anything, but I was, as I said, really open to suggestions. So when I was invited to this church and I was told that you know, this is an amazing youth group that does a lot of things for the community, I was hooked. The love bombing was immediate. It was from that first day. They told me that they're having another youth group that following Thursday I should attend. You know it was very lively. It opened up this whole new possibility for me.
Rachael Reign:Because if he was to ask me at the time what religion I was, I probably would say Christian. But I never attended church regularly and religion wasn't a part of my everyday life. But suddenly there's a church and it was on my doorstep. The nature of the UCKG is to be very local, so they're not hard to find. They're on many high streets, so it was about it being convenient as well. You know it's like wow, so there's this youth group in church right around the corner from my house. Okay, so you know I went that following Thursday.
James Hodgson:You paint a very positive picture there, but obviously, of course now, given the nature of your campaigning, I'm assuming that relationship changed. Oh yeah, over time, how long were you an activist?
Rachael Reign:Eight years, so I joined when I was 13 and left when I was 21.
James Hodgson:And how would you describe from your time in the church the specific teachings denomination? You know what makes UCKG different to other Christian groups.
Rachael Reign:They make themselves very relatable. Their nature is very charismatic. They're not necessarily stuffy, it's very lively. They position themselves to be a help centre and a community focused group, but also they really have a knack of applying to people's vulnerabilities. So they go by many names UCKG, uckg, help centre is their like. That's the one they like to use when they're talking about their community works. So the nature of that is that they basically have a solution to all of your problems.
Rachael Reign:So, yes, they're a church, they pray and they read the Bible, but it's heavily influenced by the idea that if you attend these services, if you do what they say, you're going to be blessed or you're going to receive some kind of answer to your problem. So it's like with every Bible verse they put out, there's a call to action of why you need to give X amount in order to receive the promise on that verse. So everything was intertwined into money. It all came down to money was intertwined into money. It all came down to money.
Rachael Reign:They're a Pentecostal church that is heavily saturated with this idea of prosperity preaching. So pretty much anything you want from God you can receive. But there's a price. You have to give a tithe for an offering or some kind of financial gift in order to receive a blessing. So that's very much how the UCKG ideology operates. You know, not only is there the monetary aspect, there's the physical aspect. You have to attend these services this amount of times in a week, you have to take part in this event, you have to do this, you have to wear here. So it's so much more than just the money and I feel as though if my only kind of issue was giving money, that almost would have been easier. But money was just a byproduct of their intense ideology of you have to give in order to receive. And at the end of all of that I wasn't receiving anything.
James Hodgson:And when you say there were kind of demands made in terms of what you have to do, how was that managed or enforced?
Rachael Reign:so it's all about spiritual abuse. I think that's the language for it. I didn't have the language back then, but I certainly have it now. So when I say spiritual abuse, I mean they would be heavy on using scripture in order to back up their manipulation or their coercive control. Like, for example, they would preach that you have to give tithe, you have to give 10% of your income to the church. So we know it mentions tithe in the Bible. There's nothing new there.
Rachael Reign:But they use the scripture in a way that makes you feel as though if you don't give 10% of your income to the church, they used to have this thing called a devouring spirit and this was a spirit they made up.
Rachael Reign:That descends upon your finances if you don't give your taif, and it will show up in the form of stuff breaking around the house, you losing your job, some kind of financial calamity would descend upon your life if you don't give taif. But they're very clever in the way they do it because if they were ever and they are of course now called out about these kind of things they can say well, yeah, we preach Taif. It says that in the Bible, everything, all the exploitation and the abuse and the coercion they hide behind scripture. And that's the nature of spiritual abuse, you know, using someone's spirituality or their beliefs and weaponizing it in a way, because that's absolutely what happened with me. If they were just coming off their own back and saying things you know, no one would really believe them. No one will feel the need, the urge to listen to what they say. But you throw a few Bible verses in there and suddenly it becomes credible.
James Hodgson:I've not heard of this idea of the prosperity preaching becomes credible.
Rachael Reign:I've not heard of this idea of the prosperity preaching, the um devouring spirit that's the uckg exclusive, and so was there a specific moment that led to you deciding yeah there were a whole bunch of things I don't when I was 13 by the time I was 15 I was made into an assistant of the church, which is basically just under the youth pastor in terms of hierarchy, and between 13 and 15, I underwent a lot of psychological abuse and physical abuse. The UCKG is heavy on exorcisms. So when you think exorcisms, you think you know the movie, the head turning the possessed girl on the bed, but the reality is exorcisms. You think you know the movie, the head turning, the possessed girl on the bed, but the reality is exorcisms happen really commonly. And you know, my thing isn't calling out exorcisms because it's been happening for hundreds of years. It is what it is. You know I'm not here to challenge religion. I'm here to challenge the harmful behaviors.
Rachael Reign:The UCKG carries out exorcisms, mass exorcisms, every Friday to a range of people in society, to vulnerable people in crisis, people with mental health issues and, in my case, minors. I was 13 years old when they came and gave me an exorcism and at the time you know you're not sat down and briefed or asked would you like to be delivered from a demon? You know there's none of that and even if there was, I wouldn't have been able to give true consent because I was a minor. I can't consent to my own abuse, but that was really violent and really scary and I was new to this world. You know, I didn't know anything about demons and it was all just so new to me. But they force you and coerce you to come every Friday so it becomes part of your life, part of your ideology. So, after having undergone these violent exorcisms, when I was 15 and I became an assistant, now I had to go and perform exorcisms on my peers, on others. So it was a vicious cycle. I was groomed and then made to groom, basically. So age 15, you know I was carrying out exorcisms. I was basically doing everything for the church modern day slavery really because all of my time was at church. After school. I was expected to be in the church every single day, monday to Sunday, literally every day after school, stamping and folding newspapers, posting it through people's doors on the streets, recruiting, cleaning the church, preparing things for services, like every single day, like working finger to the bone kind of thing. That was 15.
Rachael Reign:19, I got married in the church because they teach that you know, getting married young is a good testimony because, hey, you don't want to fall into sin, you don't want to do something crazy like kissing your boyfriend. Hence why we had a three-month time limit on getting married. So you know, in the uckg you have a time limit. You're not allowed to date for a long time because you can fall into sin. So you have to hurry up and get married. So, age 19, I got married to a fellow member. Because you're only allowed to marry within and this is common within most high control groups you have to marry from within, you're not allowed to marry outside of that group. So it was all very controlled. I was definitely coerced. I don't think any well, I'm not gonna say no, 19 year old will just get married off their own backs, because of course they do, especially when you're young and hormones are flying around. But for me it was just a natural progression. I really had nothing in common with him, but hey, it seemed like a good idea at the time.
Rachael Reign:21, I was out of there and the final straw, there were so many because when you're in these kind of environments where you know you're just so controlled. I mean, in the UCKG I wasn't even allowed to doubt the teachings. They would teach that if you had bad eyes, that itself is a sin. And bad eyes and all of these little things, these little terminologies, are common to high control groups. They develop their own language to communicate and enforce their systems. So we weren't even allowed to have negative thoughts about the church or about their teachings or about what they do. So it weren't even allowed to have negative thoughts about the church or about their teachings or about what they do. So it's like we were policed so much In my eight years, although I had certain doubts, certain things that didn't rub well with me.
Rachael Reign:I wasn't able to explore it or talk about it or bring it to the forefront. But then I would say the major event came when I got married, because the UCKG doesn't officiate legally. They just never apply for the license. They make you get married legally and then you have your church evidence. So when we got married legally, we do what married people do. We consummated our vows In my mind. We're married now. There's no sin, it's all good.
Rachael Reign:Apparently, I was wrong the next day. I was basically interrogated by the pastor's wife at the time and I was told that I've done something wrong. Thing was up. I felt like a pit in my stomach. I felt like I was being summoned to the principal's office because I was actually summoned to meet a head pastor in Finsbury Park and in the UCKG. When you're summoned to the headquarters, you know you've done something wrong. So I was summoned myself, not with my husband, just me. Coincidentally, it's always the woman that seems to get the brunt of it all.
Rachael Reign:And then I was interrogated, 19 years old, interrogated by the now bishop in charge of the UCKG in the UK, and I was interrogated and expected to divulge, you know, every detail and told that what I was doing was very sinful and although I was married legally, I was not married under the eyes of God and therefore I had to be punished. So, as a result, I was not married under the eyes of God and therefore I had to be punished. So, as a result, I lost my position as an assistant In high control groups. When you're promoted and demoted, it's a system to modify your behavior and control you. So in the UCKG, specifically, losing your uniform or being put to sit down, as they used to say, was like the ultimate sin, because then it's obvious to everyone that you've committed some kind of grave sin and you basically had a scarlet letter. So at that point I was like this isn't fair, like I've done everything they've said. I've played everything by the book. I don't live in sin. I attend all the services I got married in sin. I attend all the services I got married. I shouldn't be punished.
Rachael Reign:That was the first time where my gut instinct would not shut up and it was niggling away. And then it's like the mask started to slip In services when the pastor would be preaching or was talking about another event where we had to give money or do something. It was like I was starting to calm into myself and start to follow the inner voice that I was told not to listen to. So by the time I was 21, I just had enough of it. I felt completely depressed. We weren't allowed to be depressed, by the way, because that showed symptoms of demonic possessions. So even though I was feeling incredibly low, poor mental health, poor mood, I weren't able to seek help, because if you seek help, then you're basically admitting that you're demon possessed. But I knew that I was feeling incredibly low.
Rachael Reign:I contemplated suicide because, the way I see it, I couldn't stay because it's killing me with every service Internally. It's like I'm dying and I'm screaming to get out. But I can't leave because we're taught that if we left, bad things would happen. We were literally told that, for example, when we leave, there's going to be demons waiting outside of the door for us, and we were showed horrendous clips and pictures of ex-members who have since died.
Rachael Reign:After leaving and this was from a young age that kind of fear was put into me. So it was really hard at the end. But it got to a point where it was like I can't do this anymore. So it was a random day of the week. I remember it was definitely random. It wasn't like a weekend or anything, it was a random day of the week. I wrote out a text message and just said look, I no longer agree with what the UCKG is doing. I know that you're not going to talk to me anymore. As per their custom, like most control, high control groups, when someone leaves, you have to shun them. I said, although you know, I know you're not going to be able to talk to me, I still want to talk to you and be friends. Bye, and I sent it to the pastor. I sent it to all my friends. I've never been back since wow, that's it.
James Hodgson:Thank you for sharing. I mean, it's really fascinating to listen to you share that story again to see how it goes from what sounded like quite a positive influence in your life that provided the community that you were looking for, but how things escalated over time and new elements to this were introduced, and there were many elements of your testimony there which were very shocking and must've been very scary to deal with. So at this stage you're then out. How did you find that transition in those early times, and are there any services or resources which might have made that transition a bit easier?
Rachael Reign:Absolutely. When I left, it was so difficult because overnight I lost my whole community. They isolate you from society, these kind of groups, and make it so that you become codependent on them. So when I gave that up, because I was so senior in the church, I knew my fate. I knew that I would be isolated, shunned, people would have to block me on Facebook. I knew the whole thing because I been there, done that, wore the t-shirt overnight, I was alone overnight. I had no friends. I suddenly didn't know what I was doing on Friday, saturday, sundays, mondays, wednesday. So suddenly it's like I'm literally on an island, not a nice island, like a really secluded, isolating island. It was a daze. In the first days. I felt physically sick because there was still a part of me that was thinking that maybe a piano was going to fall from the sky and kill me or a bus was to come out from nowhere and hit me. You know, because these are the kind of paranoia that you develop when you're in these kind of groups, because they make it a really clear and defined point that if you leave, bad things, things will happen, so that doesn't go overnight just because you decided to leave. So I was still dealing with that and the paranoia. But I suppose the more room I gave myself to trust myself again, the easier it became.
Rachael Reign:My husband remained in the cult. It took him around maybe three years for him to leave at At first he wasn't sure, because in the church they teach that if your spouse leaves the church that's one of the only real reasons why you can divorce them. So at first I thought, well, is he going to divorce me? But at the time I didn't really care because I didn't really like him. It wasn't a normal relationship. There wouldn't be any loss there. Really and truly I was prepared to do whatever, just to be free. You know, when I left I took a few months for him to adjust. It was fine, he would still go, I would do my thing, kind of potter around the house. It was just freeing. It was like I suddenly had the world lifted off of my shoulders. I went from being like so tightly wound, having like humanity salvation on my shoulders, like suffocating, to being completely free, no one breathing down my neck, telling me when to attend, what to do, what to read, what to wear, how to dress. It was very freeing, but it was very isolating because there was no one to talk to, there was no one to kind of cross notes with, there was no support.
Rachael Reign:At the time, I didn't even know what I experienced Back then. I had no idea it was a cult. You know, I had no idea. My only reasoning was that maybe it was just false doctrine. You know, that was it. It was just a bad church.
Rachael Reign:I had no idea it wasn't until I started reconnecting with other people who left, and this took many months, many years for me to actually develop the language and name it, which is what I believe to be a cult. Not until I watched another documentary for Scientology that I cross-referenced and it was like that was what I went through. Oh my god, so shunning's a thing. Oh so, you know, I started to develop all of this language and it was so exciting. And then that's when, you know, I was speaking to a friend who also attended and I was like why don't we go on Instagram? Why don't we talk about this? Let's talk about our experiences and the rest is history.
Rachael Reign:If there were any groups that could have helped me, yeah, back then there really wasn't, because even this discussion of cults, high control environments, you know, there was no TikTok back then. There was no kind of open forums, so there really was nothing. Speaking to my GP about my mental health wasn't an option, because, you know, we were conditioned to simply not seek help for our mental health. It wasn't a thing. There was really no one that I could talk to professionally. I didn't think to contact any charities because, from what I understood, there was no charities that can help. I didn't even know what I needed help with. So it's like what do you even search on Google, right?
Rachael Reign:So I suppose, to answer your question, surviving Universal UK would have been the thing that would have helped me, because I would have instantly have been connected with other people who went through the exact same thing and I would have been exposed to other people's stories, which would have made all the difference. Because when you leave these kind of groups you're so like tunnel vision you think it's just me, it's just my life. Maybe it's my fault. You're gaslit, you self-gaslight, and you think it's just you when in reality, there's so many people going through the same thing. So I didn't have validation and I feel that if I did have validation I would have moved along in life a lot further. So yeah, I'm proud to say that Surviving Universal UK would have helped me, or the Family Survival Trust.
Rachael Reign:I think Surviving Universal UK is different in the sense that it's not clinical, it's not kind of like a distant thing, it's present. It's South London. We go live on Instagram, live on TikTok plenty of videos, lots of kind of spaces to talk about these things and speak about the unspeakable. It's relatable and I would have definitely have related to Surviving Universal UK. I would have been like what you went through that too, so it's not just me like it's incredible, it really is and, yeah, I think it would have definitely helped me making that step to create the support group that you would have yourself appreciated and needed at the time.
James Hodgson:I'm sure it's helped many other people since and, just for anyone listening who might be relating to some of the things that you mentioned, it's's not just with UCKG that you support. I mean with your group. You are supporting, I guess, many different people. I mean, how should people get in touch with you if they want to support?
Rachael Reign:Surviving Universal UK is open to any survival of spiritual cultic abuse and we have a specialism towards this kind of abuse within Black and Brown communities specifically because it's our understanding that there are a lot of church cults operating who target the same demographic that the UCKG does. Within our community there are a lot of churches that are really high control groups and Surviving Universal UK gives survivors the language to identify the difference between a healthy church that actually supports you and a church that's actually preying on you. So I advise anyone who's going through a situation where they're not sure about the church they're attending or place of worship, because it could be anyone. This kind of thing can happen in so many different environments, so many different places of worship. So it's open to anyone who feels that they're being controlled if their spirituality is playing a part in that. Anyone who feels that they may be in a group that's controlling and taking over feels that they may be in a group that's controlling and taking over. And also anyone who's experienced coercive control, be it family, because coercive control and cultic abuse doesn't only happen within institutions, it can happen in families. Some families are coercively controlling in their nature. You know you have to pray, you have to fast, you have to do this, you have to read your Bible, or else it's coercive control. It may not be institutionalized, but it's the same thing and it leaves the same kind of trauma.
Rachael Reign:So we're open to anyone who's experienced this kind of abuse, whether you're Black, brown, white, asian, global as well. We support survivors from all around the world and from a range of different groups and communities. So anyone really who needs support and identifies we're here to help. And in terms of how to get the help, you can have an email at info at surviving universal ukorg, or you can send us a dm on tiktok or instagram, because those are the two that we're most active and I'm more likely to see your dm because, yeah, it's quite in demand. There's a lot of people that's going through what I've been through, unfortunately, and what does survivor support look like?
James Hodgson:what are some of the practical services or guidance that you?
Rachael Reign:offer. So, in the first instance, we offer a space where you can talk about your issues because, as I said, validation is so important and oftentimes survivors don't need all the bells and whistles, they don't need referrals or all it. Sometimes they just need to talk about it, to bring it out into the forefront. So I often get people just wanting to share their story and in sharing their story they feel as though they've broken the silence and to validate them and let them know that actually you weren't just demon possessed or no, no, no, the devil wasn't after you. You were just unfortunately targeted by a place that didn't have your best interest at heart. Sometimes just that makes you feel like you're not crazy, because you're in your head a lot when you're in these kind of groups. So we offer that validation. We offer support groups. We had a support group that ran every month and we stopped it for a brief interim, but we are commencing that again. So we have our Surviving Universal UK support groups, which is once a month online via Zoom, and that's a real space where people who've been through cultic abuse and spiritual abuse can come together in a safe space and talk about their experiences and compare notes and just share with people that get it, people who's been through it. When you mention certain things, it might raise eyebrows or make you look crazy in some spaces, but not in that space, because people yeah, we understand what it's like.
Rachael Reign:I also run a community drop-in for mental health in Lambeth and that's based in Lambeth. So from 10 until 1 in Brixton Library I am there, set up ready to speak to residents of Lambeth about their mental health and and from there I do signposting. I introduced them to the Surviving Universal UK community and I'm able to make referrals to mental health or other referrals like, for example, people who wish to seek legal advice or to I don't know how do they get their employer to release notes that can confirm that they, you know was under undue influence so that they can sue? Just little things like that.
Rachael Reign:It's really important for survivors to have advocacy, especially in this field, because I feel that and rightly so, with so many causes, there's lots of different options for people. If you went through and this is not to compare, compare abuse, because abuse is abuse and it's terrible period but if you was to go through domestic abuse, there's so many amazing services, there's so many advocates and it's great, but where do you go when you left a call? Who advocates for you? Where do you start?
James Hodgson:so yeah, this is the starting point I like to think and I know you're creating and supporting those advocacy campaigns and they're growing in support as well, and I'd love to cover that a little bit more. But one of the things I've heard you speak about previously that I think is really interesting is, whilst I know you've mentioned spiritual abuse, and I think for most people when they think about cults, they think that they are religious in nature because, as you said, there are useful, useful elements of religion that can be used to manipulate but but it's appealing to people's needs as well. But I know you've also spoken about non-religious cults, though it can be political in nature or perhaps have some other emphasis, some other way in which you capture people. I must admit I think these have even less coverage and I wasn't aware of them, so I'm interested to know for anybody who's listening to this.
James Hodgson:I think we're all vulnerable to be caught up in a group like that seems as though it's fulfilling some needs for us, it's providing for us in some way. You leave yourself open to be exploited. So what's your advice to anybody? What would be the warning signs to see when a relationship within a group is becoming coercive or controlling?
Rachael Reign:so, as you rightly mentioned, cults come in so many different shapes and sizes. If you pick a topic, there's probably a cult for it. There's cults within the political world, within the wellness world, within the cultural pride realm, like within the black community. There's black empowerment, which I believe to be cults, some of them, some pockets. There's veganism cults. There's so many different cults out there, so many. But because they're not the stereotypical white herds walking around in a circle chanting you would never think it. But all cults operate under the same kind of structure. So there are definitely some telltale signs in which you can kind of identify and start to, you know, recollect your experiences. For example, if you're part of a group in which it has a leader, because all cults have a leader, a very charismatic, influential leader. This is something typical of all cults. So if there is a leader within your group who you are not allowed to question, that's a big red flag Because, generally speaking, you know you should be able to hold someone to account, you should be able to challenge. When you're not able to scrutinize or hold a leader to account, that opens up the way to dictatorship, for example, in the political world, because there's no kind of democracy. There there's no room for kind of, actually, is this the right thing? Is this what we want? You know, in a dictatorship there's no room for all of that. That's pretty much how a cult works. A cult works like a dictatorship. You have to listen to what the leader says, you're not allowed to question, you're not allowed to go against the Reign and you're not allowed to basically hold anyone to account. So that's the first red flag. If you're part of a group that you're not allowed to question, you're not allowed to kind of scrutinize, that's maybe not a safe environment and the nature of the group. Free will is something that we're all afforded to. It's a human right to have basic freedoms. In this world, cults look to take away that freedom. So if you're part of a group in which you're not allowed to really advocate for yourself and dictate when you want to take part or not take part, if you're isolated, if there's a sense where you know anyone that's not part of this group is bad and everyone in here is good, if there's a kind of us versus them mentality, that's not a good thing because that shows that it's not working for the greater good, it's working for their good. So these are the kind of telltale signs that I help people to identify within Surviving Universal UK. That's another reason why, if you're curious, I would encourage you to follow Surviving Universal UK's pages, because these are the little tips that make all the difference.
Rachael Reign:Because, you know, you would often think that actually I'm not in a cult, no, no, no. And then you hear something like that and it's like OK, well, I kind of do have a leader. You know my bishop, we're not allowed to question him. So actually, you know, it kind of gives you food for and brings it to the forefront. So yeah, those are the telltale signs, I would say, and also extreme defensiveness. If you care about someone who you suspect to be in a high control group, a lot could be said about the way that person reacts to criticism. So if you bring up, you know, your concerns about said group and you're met with defensiveness. You know fierce defensiveness. How dare you talk about my group, how dare you talk about this person? That's a red flag.
Rachael Reign:And another thing I will say and it's a perfect little crossover is being in a cult is just like being in an abusive relationship. It's the same dynamics when you're trying to reason with a person who's in a cult is just like being in an abusive relationship. It's the same dynamics when you're trying to reason with a person who's in a domestically abusive situation, classically when you try to reason with them or in staging intervention and say, look, this person's a scumbag. They hurt you, you know you have to leave them.
Rachael Reign:The reception isn't good. It's always, you know. But you don't know him like I do. You don't know her like I do. You know how dare you? He's a good. It's the same kind of dynamics. You know, being in a cult or a high control group is just like being in an abusive relationship, that's all you know. You become codependent, you know it's the same kind of dynamics there. So yeah, if you try to talk to someone you love who you feel may be in a cult, then your defensiveness is a big red flag, because that means that they're not able to be critical.
James Hodgson:Cults disable your critical thinking skills there's a really good checklist I think you've given us there this having a charismatic leader who cannot be questioned. You know, an authority structure, I suppose, which you cannot question. This idea of the extreme defensiveness, and I think particularly interesting is the moralizing of the group as well, the idea that the in-group are the righteous and good and anyone who's outside of it. By definition they are impure, immoral, which is, again, it's easy to spot from the outside. But I imagine these traits are very difficult to recognize in ourselves, right, and all of us want structure, we want to consider ourselves good people and we are going to be more defensive about the people we care about and our friends and our loved ones.
Rachael Reign:So I guess it comes into a question of degree, I suppose often by the time you get schwed, where you know you realize something's wrong and you've already been abused, you've already been coerced and exploited. It happens so gradually and just so subtly that you really don't know it. When you're in it, you know they keep you busy as well. That's the other thing about high control groups. They keep you so busy that you often don't have a chance to stop and think actually, am I being exploited here? Am I being controlled? Am I making the right decision? You don't have the time to sit and think about these things, and they know that.
James Hodgson:And you've spoken about how, almost immediately upon realising this, you decided to get onto Instagram Live and be very public in your disagreements and also, more importantly, your support of the survivors or also those who are potentially looking at leaving what went into the decision to be a very public facing well, when I first started talking about my experiences, I had no intention of doing any of this.
Rachael Reign:It all just kind of happened. Coincidentally, when we went live that first time and I spoke about my experiences, you know, people started to see an opportunity to do the same and share their stories. So people quickly fled to my DMs and requested to share their experiences. And then it became apparent that I needed this own Instagram because my Instagram was being like hijacked by this movement. And I had no idea because didn't comprehend it. And then, you know, it kind of came into itself.
Rachael Reign:But I suppose I just responded to a need. I couldn't turn these people away and there really was nothing like that. There wasn't any other group that I can kind of like defer them to and send them away to. There was nothing. So I saw an opportunity to kind of fill that space and provide that platform.
Rachael Reign:And also I suppose maybe it's the Leo in me those of you who believe in astrology I don't know if I really do, but hey, them being so kind of pig-headed about it set a fire within me, because when I started talking out, it's like they knew me and they knew that I was 15 years old when I was going through all of this. They knew, they know that I'm not lying. How dare they demonize me, how dare they, you know, scandalize me internally? Why don't they just apologize? So I suppose them denying my trauma and my abuse made me want to hold them even more accountable, because it's like not only did you mistreat me, I know that you're hurting others, because look at all of these people behind me saying the same thing. So I suppose that's what really motivated me to go the distance and with the media stuff especially, I felt that it had to be done.
Rachael Reign:There was no way that this could have worked without that media attention, because at that point we were just online. There was no reference in the media, meaning whenever someone would google the UCKG, they wouldn't be getting the full picture. There's nothing publicly available. There were little articles here and there, but nothing from survivors. So for me it's like we have to get the story in the media and of course, with um survivor stories in the media, you have to have your sources, you have to have people behind the story. So who else would do it but me? So I had to go ahead and, you know, kind of put myself out there, because without it, there wouldn't be a story. So I suppose, yeah, all of those things definitely contributed, but more than ever, it's about the need, you know, creating a space that I never had and the response has been amazing, you know, to make people feel less alone, to validate survivors experiences and to hold the UGT account.
James Hodgson:And has it come at a personal cost to you To use the phrase universally?
Rachael Reign:being positive the response that you've received, it hasn't come at a dire personal cost. Now, of course I'm known as the black poster girl for ex-cult members. I wouldn't say that's a negative thing. It's not something I would have chosen to be known for, because it's not my proudest moment, but it's my life, it's my experience. So I don't think there's any negative personal cost.
Rachael Reign:Of course it's quite taxing sometimes with the sheer volume of survivors because, as I said, really isn't much available for survivors of cults and spiritual abuse. Of course the work's in high demand, but it's just, it's a real honor because I'm the first person they disclosed about their abuse and that's a huge honour and one that I never take for granted. So a personal cost is that it's very demanding at times, but it's a privilege and I wouldn't want to do anything else. You know, it's just such a privilege and honour. And, yeah, it's needed. It's generally needed because the UCKG is just one part of this. You know I advocate for survivors from many different groups and the UCKG may be one of the largest offenders, but they're not the only ones. So I feel as though if we could make an example out of them and hold them account, then it definitely opens up the way for other similar groups to also be held accountable and get the wider discussion going.
James Hodgson:And on this point of accountability, I think one of the criticisms I sometimes hear when we have episodes on some of these topics from well-meaning people perhaps who don't have these experiences but they'll sometimes say we shouldn't attack religion, we shouldn't criticize people's private beliefs and they're potentially uncomfortable by addressing these types of topics. Have you had that criticism and what's your response?
Rachael Reign:my response would be that, yeah, you're right. No one is here calling out religion. That's never been. My issue is the abuse, and if anyone can't differentiate between abuse and religion, then that's a problem within itself. You have to be able to be subjective. If you can't be subjective to abuse within religion or abuse within sport, wherever the abuse is happening, you have to be subjective. Just because abuse is happening in the church, it doesn't mean that you're meant to just like tiptoe, not kind of hold it accountable. Abuse is abuse.
Rachael Reign:I'm going to quote the chair of the National Working Group Against Spiritual and Ritual Abuse, jordan Alexander. He's our chair. I'm on the advisory committee. He coined a phrase that I think is perfect, and it is challenge the behavior, not the belief. And that's what I'm doing. I'm not challenging their beliefs as Christians or any of it, no matter how questionable some of the more twisted ideology is. That's not the issue here. The issue is not God or Jesus or the Bible or Christianity. No, the issue is abuse.
Rachael Reign:And especially when we're talking about abuse, we have to be subjective. We have to and not being subjective when we're talking about abuse within places of worship. So, jordan Alexander, that phrase is, I think, perfect. Yes, the challenge, the behavior, not the belief. We're not challenging anyone's belief. We are out abuse and that plays into our kind of ethos within surviving universal uk. Accountability is not persecution, because often when survivors are calling out a harmful place of worship, they say we're being discriminated against. They're discriminated against no one's. We're being discriminated against, they're discriminated against no one's persecuting your faith. We are challenging the harm and the abuse. There's a difference. So, yeah, those are definitely some two things that I think anyone who feels defensive or that we're attacking religion should consider.
James Hodgson:And I know you're very involved in this campaign to urgently reform the Serious Crime Act, particularly around the area of cults, as we've been discussing. Where does the act currently fall short and what is the specific changes that you are campaigning for?
Rachael Reign:Act 2015 is amazing in the sense that it identifies coercive control within domestic settings. So that's brilliant, you know. It's a major win for domestic abuse. However, for people who fall outside of that quite narrow definition, it's detrimental. And to quantify it, when I spoke to the police about my experiences you know because on Surviving Universal UK we advocate for people to make police reports when I made my police report and I was explaining my situation to the call handler, I was told that, although it definitely sounds like coercive control, because my pastor doesn't qualify as someone in a domestic relationship there's nothing the police could do. And that's literally what I was told. And you know hearing other survivors' feedback from talking to the police. It's the same thing over and over again. So basically, if my boyfriend was to do what my pastor did, I can call the police and he could be in handcuffs. But if my boyfriend was to do what my pastor did, I can call the police and he could be in handcuffs. But if my pastor was to do it not be in a domestic relationship he's free to go. That's crazy.
Rachael Reign:There is no legal protection for people in high control groups. There's none, there's nothing. And the coercive control legislation is the perfect kind of like silver bullet, because in high control groups and cults, coercive control is a constant theme. You don't have a cult without coercive control, so that is the one legislation that can actually see perpetrators of cultic abuse held accountable. So that's what we're campaigning for. We're not campaigning for a brand new set of legislation or laws. We're simply asking for a slight amendment that recognizes coercive control period, not just in a domestic setting, but anyone found guilty or anyone who carries out coercive control being in a situation where they can face the law.
James Hodgson:And what's the response been so far from lawmakers, from the general public and anyone who's encountered the campaign?
Rachael Reign:Shock. I think a lot of people are shocked. A lot of people can't understand why the legislation is so rigid, and I think people are just in general agreement. Why wouldn't the law recognise all forms of coercive control? That's weird, you know why only identify it within one setting? It happens a lot in so many other relationships and settings outside of domestically. So there's definitely a lot of support. I have been lobbying my local MP and I advise anyone to do the same. So Viviving Universal Trust has a brilliant proposal and we also have a briefing in which we can supply to people to actually give to their local MP for them to get a briefing of the proposal, and it includes everything that we want them to know, and that's a really critical piece that can actually make a difference, because I think the more MPs that hear about this and hear about my story and other people's story within these groups, the more they see us in need. Why not extend that definition so that everyone's protected?
James Hodgson:And how far down the route of getting the law changed. What's the next major hurdle that you're looking to overcome?
Rachael Reign:The next hurdle is to get it discussed in Parliament. We have some amazing MPs on board who are fully aware of the proposal. All we need now is for the MPs to align themselves and take it to Parliament. That's all we need. We just need a discussion to get going, because I think once it gets to that point, there's more than enough sources, more than enough testimonies, more than enough reasons as to why this law should be amended.
James Hodgson:Do you have a petition that followers can sign if they want to ask for it to be discussed in Parliament?
Rachael Reign:It's actually in the works, so within a matter of weeks we should have a proposal and again, I'm not proposing a petition. We should have within the next few weeks. That's why it's really important to follow some family survival, trust and surviving universal uk, because, of course, all of the updates around the campaign will be shared on those platforms and we'll certainly share updates to that so anyone can be notified and support that when it's available.
James Hodgson:But in the meantime, if anybody is listening and is not just affected by your work but wants to support and advocate for change in the same way, what would you recommend? What could be most supportive for this campaign at the moment?
Rachael Reign:At the moment, I would say just getting the word out On Surviving Universal UK. There's a lot of content around this, so just sharing content makes a big difference, you know, just maybe sending it to your MP or tagging them in the comments. It's about awareness. We need maximum awareness. So I would say sharing content is very important, mentioning it to people in positions of power and, of course, getting your hands on the briefing which you can take to your MP and that is available by contacting the Family Survival Trust. So if you go on the Family Survival Trust's website and they have a brand new, wonderful website you will be able to contact them and get your hands on a copy of the briefing, and I think that's one of the most powerful ways you know to actually go in and talk to your local MP, especially if you have lived experience with this. It makes all the difference to say actually, if this amendment was in place, then maybe I can bring my abuser to account, but because it's not, here, I am. So that's a powerful thing to do.
James Hodgson:It's wonderful. I wish you all the best of luck with everything and thank you for the work you've done. You're an inspiration to many, and I've been on a couple of those Instagram lives. They're always handled with care and a lot of positivity and inclusiveness. Keep up the great work, Rachael. Just before we go, we have our standard closing question, which is what's something you've changed your mind on recently and what inspired that change?
Rachael Reign:yes, so this is a fairly new one, as in yesterday I realized that you don't always have to date for marriage. People who come from high control environments and religions. You're Reign and groomed to think that you have to date with the intention of getting married. Yesterday I just realized actually you don't need to. So I took the pressure of dating, so maybe I won't romanticize. I want to marry the next person I date. So that's a revelation, that's new, a bit random, but there we go.
James Hodgson:I guess that's one of the nice things of having a big change as you have in life is that then it leaves you open for lots more other changes to your perspective probably don't seem so dramatic.
Rachael Reign:Exactly, that's it.
James Hodgson:Wonderful Rachael Reign. Thank you for joining us on Humorism Now.
Rachael Reign:Thank you for having me.
