34. Michael Bauer on Community Services Without Religion: Practical Humanism for a Secular Future

“The highest value, the most precious value we have is not peace—it’s freedom.”  — Michael Bauer 

This week on Humanism Now, we’re joined by Michael Bauer, CEO of Germany’s Humanistische Vereinigung—a 175-year-old humanist organisation offering professional community services without religion, grounded in ethics, dignity, and freedom.

From ceremony to solidarity, Bauer shows how organised humanism is more than a philosophy—it’s a movement of services, institutions, and action. Discover how practical humanism is creating a visible, inclusive, and values-driven future.

We discuss:

• How the Humanist Association of Germany began in the 1848 and how it survived twice being banned
• The importance of physical infrastructure and visible presence for secular communities
• How humanism serves as an ethical alternative providing meaning, guidance, and community—without supernatural belief
• Why inclusive, values-led services matter in a plural society, and how secular support systems can serve everyone
• The Humanists Shelter Program and the three-year diplomatic effort to bring humanist Mubarak Bala to safety
• The need for political engagement, funding, and infrastructure to build influence and lasting change
• A powerful personal reflection on defending humanist values in times of crisis

About Michael Bauer 

 🔗  michaelbauer.info

📰 Interview with In-sight Publishing

Connect with Humanistische Vereinigung  
 🔗 humanistische-vereinigung.de

📷  @humanistischevereinigung
🐦  @HV_Presse
🌳 Linktree: humanistischevereinigung

References:

• Humanists Shelter Progr

Leadership Lessons From The Great Books
Leaders are readers of the Great Books of Western literature.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Michael Bauer
• 2:55 Humanistische Vereinigung's Legacy of Survival Since 1848
• 6:44 Professional Humanist Services in Practice
• 10:53 Reception of Secular Services from Religious Users
• 13:22 Defending the Right to Provide Community Services
• 15:37 Protecting and Providing Shelter for Humanists at Risk
• 23:44 Political Approach to Humanist Change
• 23:44 [Ad] Leadership Lessons From The Great Books
• 24:31 (Cont.) Protecting and Providing Shelter for Humanists at Risk
• 30:05 Changing Minds on Defending Freedom

Transcript

James Hodgson: 0:01

In this moment of global change, where human rights, education and freedom of belief are under pressure in many regions, humanism offers an ethical foundation rooted in reason, dignity and care. As more people around the world identify as non-religious, questions arise as to how we build inclusive, compassionate societies without relying on traditional religious institutions. One organisation leading the way is Germany's Humanistische Vereinigung, or the German Humanist Association. Founded in 1848, they continue their mission to provide public services grounded in secular values. Our guest today is Michael Bauer, CEO of Humanistische Vereinigung. Under Michael's leadership, the organization reaches and supports 30,000 people a year and operates schools, kindergartens, refugee support programmes, social services and popular science exhibitions, all grounded in humanist values. Michael is also a political scientist, author and was the president of the European Humanist Federation from 2020 to 2023. I'm delighted to say Michael joins us today to talk about the future of organized humanism, how we support one another across borders and why it matters to build strong secular communities both locally and globally. Michael Bauer, thank you so much for joining us on Humanism Now.

Michael Bauer: 1:18

Thank you for the possibility to be here, James. It's a pleasure.

James Hodgson: 1:23

Can we start at the beginning? Could you tell us about what brought you personally to humanism and how that led to eventually taking on the leadership role with the Humanist Association?

Michael Bauer: 1:33

Generally, I never had any religious feeling or consciousness or whatsoever. Also, my parents didn't have any religion, culturally or in another context. I was a rather raw atheist when I started this job and most of my knowledge today about what humanism is or could be or might be was on the job. So I wrote some books together with other people in collaborations and if you start to try to get things fixed, to know and at least to think about what humanism means and how it can be put into practice, how it is possible to get it into the world, not only in our brains and thinking and talking, but also to other people, and to make the world better by offering humanist services, humanist ceremonies, humanist possibilities to meet certain things.

James Hodgson: 2:55

And the organization has been around, as we mentioned, since 1848. So I mean that carries a huge historical legacy. I just wonder what does that legacy mean to you, and how does it inform the way in which you run the organization today, with its modern identity?

Michael Bauer: 3:13

So in 1848, there was a revolution in Germany and we had before that a very strict monarchical system, feudal system, and it was a democratic revolution. It failed. Perhaps you know that in America there were a lot of 48ers, and these were the people which emigrated to the United States afterwards, after this revolution failed. But in the context of this democratic revolution, which also had an impetus against churches, the churches were mingled with these autocratic, monarchistic regimes we had in Germany and gave them legitimacy. There were people who tried to find another way of living their lives in an ethical way, without a traditional religious shape like the churches had and, of course, with another democratic inner structure. The churches, of course, were very much opposed against them. These communities elected their speakers themselves, which was outrageous to the Catholics, for example, and the women could vote too, which was outrageous to the Catholics, for example, and the women could vote too, which was outrageous to the Protestants.

Michael Bauer: 4:31

So we started in being a kind of opposition, utopian at the same time. But the core of it was democracy, self-determination, freedom and the respect and the dignity of every individual. So these were essential values from the beginning up from 1848 on. This is a kind of a DNA of our organization and, of course, this DNA still is existent, and it's been important as our tradition. It's important for the work today too, because these still are the core values, what we describe as humanism until today, and on these values all our activities are founded.

James Hodgson: 5:16

Yes, these are timeless values and it's great that the organization has continued and carried that on 150 years later.

Michael Bauer: 5:25

We were forbidden two times. So we have also a history of problems. When this revolution in 1848 failed, it took only two years or three years that in many regions of Germany of these times these organizations were forbidden again and dissolved. And they were refounded in the 1860s and then they were forbidden in 1933 again. So every time a regime was in charge which was opposed to these values freedom, self-determination, individual dignity they were no friends of our organizations and often they were forbidden. And we know that our chairman in this time, 1933, he was brought to a concentration camp because he was also a social democrat, but also because of his beliefs. There are very hard stories for some of our members in these terms, which is also a part of our history. So we are also an anti-fascist organization because we know what fascism means.

James Hodgson: 6:37

Yes, and I think there's a lot that can be learned from that. As we see challenges and fascism potentially on the rise again around the world, it's important that these organizations persist, and it's very impressive as well to see the range of professional services that we mentioned in the introduction that your organization offers from kindergartens and schools, your refugee support programs fantastic initiatives. What does it mean to be a professional humanist organization? Fantastic initiatives. What does it mean to be a professional humanist organization, and how do you balance the?

Michael Bauer: 7:12

practical delivery of services with maintaining and advocating for humanism. Its two sides are the same metal. The humanist values are the origin for all the methods and the contents of what we do. In some activities, some fields of activity, this is more prominent than in others, but it's always there. To be a humanist professional in this way means that you have to act professionally, you have to deliver good quality. Of course, you have to act inside a framework which often is given by the state. It's a professional standards and quality standards, and all that so that the services you offer are of real value and good quality. But additionally to this, what every organization for example runs kindergartens has to do let's say, 80 or 90 percent of what you are doing is the same for every kindergarten or child care center. But in Germany we have what we call subsidiarity, so you have a lot of organizations which offer these services and they all have their specific spin in it. So you have 80-90%, which is professional level, but the rest is how you do it. Or just specific input is and, for example, in our kindergartens, one of these inputs is the culture of ceremonies and the culture of dealing with the plurality of culture that children bring into the kindergarten. These institutions are not only for our members and not only for humanists. They are humanist institutions which offer services to everybody, and I think this is really important for the humanism in principle and also for the strategy for humanist organizations not to address only humanists this would mean we talk always on the same bubble but to address every person, every human being, if you want to say so, and show that how we do things and how we see things can be a very good way to solve problems, to lead an ethical and good life, to be decent to humans and perhaps also to animals as a like.

Michael Bauer: 9:34

That humanism as a life stance is a good thing, as religions claim to be themselves too. We call it in German analog function. Be themselves too, we call it in German analog function. It is not religion, but it can have the same function religion has in the life of people. So it gives sense, it ensures communication, it gives you advice if you have to deal with really difficult situations in your life, with loss or other things that you have to deal with and what can happen to you when you live.

Michael Bauer: 10:10

We often hear that if you don't have a religion, you can't deal with these problems you may have in your life, when you fall ill or when your parents die or your children die or whatsoever, and you have no idea how to raise your children because you don't have any values, and then everything goes and you have no fundament in your life. And we try to prove that this is wrong, that humanism gives all this in a very good way and very positive. Humanism is better than religion, but we won't say so. It's an alternative, a possibility too, and then the people shall judge themselves what they think about it, and we hope they find it better too.

James Hodgson: 10:53

Yeah, that's wonderful and I wanted to ask about the challenges that you may have faced getting recognition for humanist-led schools. But I wonder, in addition to that, have you been surprised by the reception, perhaps from, as you say, religious users of these humanist services? Has it changed their perception at all?

Michael Bauer: 11:13

We can really see that there are many misconceptions about atheists and humanists and non-religious people quite often religious people quite often. In Germany still, the churches are really dominant players in this field of value and meaning in life and all this, and they are not always friendly towards the idea of being non-religious. And we see it nearly every time when we start an initiative in a region where we are not known already that all this comes up and it has to be overcome. Usually it will be. But as soon as we start to work and it can be seen that we are not the devil in disguise or whatsoever, and the people want to have these services because they see that it's a good way, for example, to educate children or to think about your life and to find advice and whatsoever, and then these things vanish and you become a normal part in the community of the city, or the part of the city where you work, so it's just a problem of beginning. Or the other part of the city where you work, so it's just a problem of beginning. And we see over the years that the religious players also see this as their problem because they see that as soon as there's an alternative on the same field.

Michael Bauer: 12:42

So not being neutral, humanism is not neutral. We have neutral organizations too, like the Red Cross or whatsoever. They say we are not committed to any religion and so whatsoever, it's not an issue for us. But organizations like humanist organizations. We're saying we have the same field. So we are on the religious field, but without religion, with unionism. This is a problem for some religious people and religious organizations and churches, because they think we are about market share and they start to behave enterprises which market shares.

James Hodgson: 13:20

Yes and I think it's a challenge that we see a lot to use your phrasing that humanist groups want to play in the religious field, be part of that area, whilst also being quite firm in our claim that it's not a religion and it's a non-religious worldview. So what's your standard response when someone raises that challenge that you shouldn't be operating in those spaces?

Michael Bauer: 13:46

that challenge that you shouldn't be operating in those spaces Of people who oppose it. We can do it and we will do it, and then you can judge what will be there when we did it.

James Hodgson: 13:51

Good response.

Michael Bauer: 13:53

Many things are about. It's a very pragmatic field. So this kind of humanist work has to do with financing and infrastructure and personnel and all these things quality standards, professional standards, marketing and of course it has to do with the legal framework. And if you are entitled to offer a service, if it is possible, or you even have the right to do it and get it financed by the state, for example, then it's not a problem of a discussion about values or whatsoever. Then it's a discussion about the law, which is better Also problematic, because when you have to deal with all these lawyers it's not so much fun sometimes, but this is a more objective kind of discussion and argumentation than if you talk to somebody who is a very religious person about God.

Michael Bauer: 14:50

I can talk to him 100 years and he will still believe in his God. So why not, as long as he keeps his God with himself and doesn't say you also have to obey the rules, my God told me, then he can believe whatever he wants. It's a free country, so it's not one of my businesses. It's only this situation when religious people say you also have to obey my religious laws, then it's a problem, a severe problem, and then you have to oppose it. But we don't oppose religion. We oppose this attitude of religious people which they show sometimes Not always, but sometimes they do.

James Hodgson: 15:35

Yes, and on that the Humanist Association in Germany has become a leader in supporting humanists at risk. Could you tell us more about the Humanist Shelter Program, how it began and what it provides?

Michael Bauer: 15:49

It started with a privately financed fund we offered to a person who had to flee from bangladesh, and that's how it started. And then we saw that five years ago, six years ago, the federal government of Germany, the foreign ministry, set up a program which should bring human rights defenders to Germany for a kind of psychological help, for example, come to rest and organize themselves again and think about what they will be their next step. So it was a possibility for the human rights defenders to come to Germany. It's not so easy to come to Germany from any country from the global south. You have to have visa, you have to have a lot of permits and you have to have some money, because you won't get any money to pay for your living. And all this is eliminated, all these problems are eliminated when you become a part of this program. So we talked to the foreign ministry and became a partner organization of this initiative and we call it Humanists at Risk because we take on humanists. But they are also a part of this program of the federal government. So if you are the host organization, you can make suggestions which person might be eligible for it, and so it's a collaboration, they're working together and this is a really good program.

Michael Bauer: 17:25

We have a new government now. We had elections some weeks or months ago. We have a new government now. We had elections some weeks or a month ago. We have a new chancellor. We also have a new foreign minister who is conservative. The person before was from the Green Party. In this time the foreign ministry was very open to all the human rights questions and all the humanist questions. We don't know yet whether this new Christian Democrat conservative person will lead to any cuts in the budget of these initiatives or not. We just don't know yet. It's too fresh, but we are working on it. We have a lobbying bureau in the federal capital of Berlin with people who work there and try to lobby for our humanist interests and also for budget.

Michael Bauer: 18:15

It's all about money. In the end. It's about means, possibilities, finances and infrastructure to be able to offer any services. If we don't have any form, organization or funds, then it becomes really difficult and for us the main problem to make everybody clear that we have all this. We have own funds, we have a stable organization, we have a good infrastructure, we have professionals who work there, so we are reliable, we can react quickly and we offer a good quality. If they ask us to take some person into our program, then every standard will be fulfilled and we fill out all the forms, how we spend the money and all this which is important for bureaucrats, which I don't mean in any way negative. It's necessary that use of public funds is documented, of course, but I think we reach the point that we are seen as a reliable partner, which is good.

James Hodgson: 19:20

It is, and I know you also recently hosted Mubarak Bala, who's quite an important case. What did that experience mean for you and the wider humanist community in Germany, mubarak?

Michael Bauer: 19:32

has a very touching story to tell. It's incredible what he had to suffer in the last years really incredible. What we tried to do was to bring his case to the German Commissioner for Freedom of Belief, omar, in his last government. I was a social democrat, a Christian, but a liberal Christian. He was the first one in German government who definitely said my office is not only the Commissioner for the Freedom of Religion but also of non-religious belief. We talked to him right in the beginning of his time as commissioner, some weeks after he took over this office, and we brought a case of Mubarak-Bala to his attendance and said this is a problem. I think he saw it in the same way. He's a politician. He got promoted now as Secretary of State in the Ministry of Justice, so we still have a connection to him and I think he will meet Mubarak too in the next month. He said I will take care of this case Also to show to the public and also to the rest of the government that it is right to say that there should be a commission also for non-religious believers' freedoms.

Michael Bauer: 20:47

He traveled to Nigeria and he talked to I think to the Undersecretary of Justice about the case. He wanted to meet Mubarak, but it was not possible. So he met his wife and he brought her to the attendance of the German foreign minister and he made it possible that the case was in some way. We shouldn't exaggerate all this, but it was a small, a tiny element in the German-Nigerian consultations of governments and it was connected with funding and development aid and all that. But it was only a very tiny thing.

Michael Bauer: 21:25

But I think it was at least very clear to any Nigerian officials that the German government, on a very high ranking level, these commissioners are one step below federal governments, really high ranking persons, diplomatically also high ranking persons. So it was clear that the German government has a look at it, so is interested in what is happening to Mubarak Bala and we linked it, with the help of Mr Schraber, to this initiative from the foreign ministry, which is our humanist at-risk program, and tried to make it possible that he can come on this ticket to Germany. Make it possible that he can come on this ticket to Germany so he gets the money for his living, he gets housing, the ticket for the flight, the visa and the permit to travel in the whole of Europe, which is, I think, very good and very appropriate.

James Hodgson: 22:22

Yes, it seems like a lot of time and effort and political knowledge and understanding of how the systems work goes into these cases. How long take start to finish from our viewpoint it took three years.

Michael Bauer: 22:37

The first contact to this commissioner was three years before mubarak near again before he arrived at the airport took three years. But it was not only our timeline, it was also his timeline, because he had to get this second trial and to come free at all. Um, but we had it all on the screen. We had a contact to the German embassy because it was so unclear whether the security situation will be sufficient for him as soon as he leaves the courthouse. So we had phone calls with the embassy and thought about that. The embassy should send a limousine and then somebody can get into it immediately. But then it was not this bad and it worked rather normally. We were prepared for everything.

James Hodgson: 23:26

But, as you say, there's so much more that can be done and needs to be done. I think it does come down to funding and, hopefully, more people getting involved and supporting these organizations, but congratulations again for the work that you did in cooperation with Humanist International. Let's hope we don't need to have many more of these cases, but it's great that there are organizations like yours which can support people. And how has your academic background in political science helped shape both your understanding of humanist values and also your approach to making change?

Michael Bauer: 24:35

Of course, my approach because I studied political sciences in a political way. I was active in one of the larger parties in Germany before I started here in this organization as a whole. I think it's all about influence and the possibilities to be heard in the fields, in the political fields we are interested in. So we don't need to tell people how waste should be disposed or whatsoever, but we have certain interests as humanists and in these fields of politics we have something to say and we should be heard, especially when you see the demographics. Also in Germany there's a majority of non-believers, but we have a structure which still is designed for a society where 90% are members of churches. So it's really strange and it has to be. To change structures is a very difficult thing to do, I think not only in Germany, but perhaps especially in Germany. And then we talk about power. How can you accumulate enough power to get your voice heard? And this also again has to do with funds, infrastructure and the legal possibility. So it's always the same, and perhaps I see it too much as a politically thinking person, and it may well be possible that you can reach things with campaigns. You start and also this can have an effect. Don't oppose this at all.

Michael Bauer: 26:15

There are many organizations which work in this way, but for us, in our experience, I would say this is not enough. I think better, and it's also necessary, that humanism not only is abstract, but it is a thing you can touch if you want to say it. So we need buildings, we need locations where you can go, which you know, everybody, at least in our surroundings here, these churches with the large towers. It's always there, but we don't have anything like this. I don't want to say that we have to build churches now.

Michael Bauer: 26:56

This is, of course, nonsense, but a real part in the life of the people in the cities and in the villages. You need a location in some way. It is better to have a location because then you can't be removed so easily. Then you are there and the people have to deal with you. Removed so easily, then you are there and the people have to deal with you. So you are a necessary part of the society. And this is extremely complicated and difficult and in many of the legal frameworks we have in Europe and in the world it is not even possible or it's not realistic, but in some countries it is realistic and in these countries, where it can be done, where it is possible, there it must be done.

Michael Bauer: 27:44

And I think it's our duty I really mean it in this sense, it's our historical duty not to leave this and not touch it and say, oh no, I prefer reading a book and talking about it. We have to find a way to make the next step of visibility and necessity for the society so that it is normal, as it is now for Christianity or other religion. This is normal. There's a normal surrounding you have in the person when you live. It must also be normal that humanism is around in some way and in some countries this is already very much the case. In others it is not. And there are countries where there is potential, where it can have more relevance and the structural needs are given, and there we should try to work. It's not everywhere, but if you succeed with this, as you can see, with our organization, of course we have more possibilities to gather influence and to gather this kind of power.

Michael Bauer: 28:53

It's not our. We can't go to the street and say that's the way things have to be done now. Nobody will hear this and all the things these are great idiots but in turn, to get influence and to have these funds and the infrastructure and the personnel to really change things, which is very difficult and it needs decades, but some things take long we have this Christian how do you call it? Partners in our market. They have 2,000 years, 2,000 years, and who knows where we stand in 2,000 years and who knows where we stand in 2,000 years? But we have to begin and to continue with this, what we think is correct and meaningful and good to do.

James Hodgson: 29:43

I think that's a fantastic place to end and thank you for all the incredible work that you have done and your organization has done in supporting and promoting these values throughout Germany, and I know as well we didn't get time to talk about, obviously, your work at a European level as well. Just before we go, we have our one standard closing question, which is what's something which you've changed your mind on recently?

Michael Bauer: 30:06

How recent is recently, I think the biggest change I had is three years old. This is my attitude towards the necessity of defending humanist values and freedom also with military means. Really, I changed my mind. This is because of Ukraine, which changed the attitude of many people here in Europe and also in Germany. The highest value, the most precious value we have is not peace, it's freedom. And we have to accept although it is of course not easy and it's not good and nobody wants it, but we have to accept that when our fundamental freedom is under attack, we have to react toward this and we have to defend our freedom. An organization like ours or a humanist life stance cannot exist in the Russian world Putin wants. So it's also for us humanists the kind of self-defense to insist that our states defend us as citizens against these aggressors, not only territorial aggressors but also aggressors in the field of ideas. And in this point I changed my mind. I thought military is not so very good, but now I see it's necessary and we have to deal with these necessities very honestly.

James Hodgson: 31:52

Thank you very much, michael, and thank you again for your time today and your continued excellent work. Thank you for joining us on Humanism Now.