33. Audrey Simmons & Lola Tinubu on Keeping the Faith Out of the Classroom: Smart Move or Overreach?

This episode was originally recorded in May 2024.

"What we have in common is what is taking us forward." — Lola Tinubu 

In May 2024, the High Court ruled that Michaela Community School’s “prayer ban” did not unlawfully interfere with students’ rights to religious freedom. This landmark decision reaffirmed the importance of secular education in promoting social cohesion — and raised questions about how schools should handle religion in increasingly diverse societies.

In this episode, Audrey Simmons and Lola Tinubu — co-leaders of the Association of Black Humanists and long-time Central London Humanists members — apply their legal and education expertise to unpack the implications of the case for humanists, educators, and advocates of a secular society.

Key Topics Covered

• The background of Michaela Community School and its secular ethos
• Why the court upheld the school’s ban under Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights
• The tension between parental influence, religious identity, and student rights
• Why secular school environments can better accommodate diversity within religions
• How education must focus on shared humanity to address collective global challenges
• Why this ruling gives schools confidence to protect inclusive and evidence-based education

Episode resources:

BBC News: Michaela School: Muslim student loses prayer ban challenge
Humanists UK: Humanists UK respond to Michaela School ‘prayer ban’ ruling

Chapters

• 0:01 Welcome and Educational Icebreaker
• 4:06 The Michaela School Prayer Ban Case
• 8:13 Court's Decision and Legal Reasoning
• 16:23 Impact on Schools and Religious Freedom
• 20:38 Future of Education and Shared Humanity

Transcript

James Hodgson: 0:01

Welcome to Humanism Now, the podcast from the Central London Humanists. I'm your host, james Hodgson. This week we'll be sharing our reflections on the so-called school prayer ban ruling. So to cover this, I'm delighted to be joined by two of my colleagues at Central London Humanists and two of the co-leaders of the Association of Black Humanists, lola and Audrey. Welcome back to the show. So our icebreaker question this week is sticking with our school and educational theme is what topic do you wish was taught in schools? So, audrey, I'll come to you first. What topic do you wish was taught?

Audrey Simmons: 0:36

I thought about this. I kind of think that we use schools in this kind in what's developed is this kind of idea that schools should be teaching everything, and I think schools should be teaching the real core stuff and everything else can kind of we can find other ways to do it. So I mean, if we're going to teach something, just teach those basic things and have introductions to things. I was introduced to things. I was introduced to metalwork, I was introduced to woodwork. I hated all of them, but now when I'm sitting down there watching repair shop you know what I mean I'm taken back to those days and I think what we need to do is just teach those very core things that have the introduction. I was introduced to tennis, I was introduced to canoeing and those kinds of things and setting those foundations. And I think we've moved away from that because we want schools to be everything and I just think just keep the basics, just give kids that little taster of things that they might never be introduced to ever again but can have that residual memory.

James Hodgson: 1:41

I love that idea of practical things in those different experiences. That sounds much more like what children get from summer camps now than what they get at school, but that sounds like a lot more fun and definitely, yeah, good to have those practical learnings. And Lola, welcome back to the show. Lovely to see you. And what would you wish was taught at schools?

Lola Tinubu: 2:00

I think I agree pretty much with Audrey.

Lola Tinubu: 2:04

However, I think from my own personal experience and when I look at human society generally, maybe my personal experience will be useful subject on its own, because somehow we are not linking what we are learning. We feel that whatever we are learning in school is just to pass exams and it doesn't really apply to life. For example, you learn something in biology but you are not connecting it with everything else. I think it's in terms of what do you ultimately believe? How do you arrive at what you are going to believe if you cannot connect your education with, if you don't see your education as something that you should understand and believe as well, if they say you know, if you are taught, one plus one is equal to two, and they show you the process and the reasoning behind it, and if it makes logical sense, you should believe it. So I'm trying to say there should be a link with what we are learning in school and our belief, and I think critical thinking is the link. I did not make that connection for decades and I think that's a miss.

James Hodgson: 3:40

you should apply the same level of critical analysis. Where have they come from? Do they make logical sense? How can you test? How can you verify? I think these are going to be increasingly important going forward. Well, thank you both for your thoughts on that topic. So, as mentioned in the intro, there was a recent court ruling on the Michaela Community School's so-called prayer ban, which has been quite a large ongoing case in the UK. It's caused a fair amount of news and responses, particularly from the humanist point of view. There was a direct response issued by Humanist UK, but we thought we'd like to provide a little bit more background on the facts in the case and why this might be important to humanists and a secular society. Audrey, could you please start by giving us an overview of the Michaela School, the so-called prayer ban case, and what were the key issues at the heart of it?

Audrey Simmons: 4:32

Well, the case was brought, it says, here by a pupil. Now I kept reading that, thinking this is not by a pupil, this is by their parents. Do you know what I mean? Their parents are behind them going, but they probably can't bring it as parents. So it's reported as being presented by a pupil and they were arguing that a ban on prayer in schools was a breach of the right to freedom to manifest her religion, and this was rejected by the courts.

Audrey Simmons: 5:02

Macayda School is known for being one of the strictest schools in Britain and they knew that when they applied there were other bans in place and other things that you couldn't do, and so they were well aware of that when they applied and were admitted to the school. And there was also evidence that the school would allow what's called a Kedar. I'm not quite sure if that's right, but there's a space where, if you in Islam that if you miss a prayer for whatever reason, and you know there is a space for you to be able to do that prayer at a later date. So that was also open to this child and so that would mitigate the fact that the rights had been lost, and there was also the idea that there was other schools that would allow that, that would accommodate that in the local area, so that the parents and the child had choice to do, so that those needs could be met if that was important. So those were the grounds under which the court rejected this application.

Audrey Simmons: 6:01

But as I think, as humanists, we agree with the idea of people being able to express their religious freedoms, I think, as humanists, we agree with the idea of people being able to express their religious freedoms. I think we understand that that's a thing. But should we have schools classed as secular spaces and the idea that children come together just to learn and that's the space, that they do that and that all the other stuff that goes with their life can be presented in other ways and in other spaces? And I think we have to be advocating for that, that secular space. And when we don't, we have cases like the bentley grammar school that happened quite recently, where they there was a kind of and in wanted to introduce blasphemy laws and rules into the school because a teacher was going to show an ancient picture of Muhammad and this is considered to be banned it's banned under a hadith, but not in the Quran and also at St Stephen's Primary School where the school was trying to implement.

Audrey Simmons: 7:03

It's a primary school. So children, you girls under eight not wearing the hijab, which again is supposed to be about puberty, it's supposed to be about women coming of age and boys not being, were not allowed to fast during ramadan. So when we look at all of these things, when we look at what's happening at michaela, when we look at what's happening across school curriculum and what's happening within schools, there's this idea. I mean just to sort of clarify, stephen's schools had to reverse their decision to ban hijabs and all of those things because of intimidation, because of the threats to life and all of those things, and we cannot have a school system where threats set the curriculum and set how is the tone of the school. So that's the kind of overview and the ramifications of not making decisions about what can be done in schools.

James Hodgson: 7:57

Thank you very much for that comprehensive introduction. Yes, this is an individual case. It's connected to, as you say, a wide range of cases I think that have been occurring over the recent years in the UK and, as you mentioned, the case or the complaint was brought by an individual people as well. It wasn't from a group. Lola, reflecting on the ruling, can you explain the court's decision and the reasoning for that they expressed in their decision?

Lola Tinubu: 8:22

reasoning for that they expressed in their decision. Before I go into that, I think it would be very interesting to read the introduction of I hope I've pronounced the name of the judge correctly, mr Justice Linden, giving background information about the school. So the school is a secular, free school for girls and boys in Wembley, is a secular, free school for girls and boys in Wembley and it has around 700 pupils who are from diverse ethnic and religious backgrounds, including the young woman the claimant in the case. So half of the students are Muslims and this school is exceptionally academically successful and it attributes this success to the distinctive approach to the provision of education, which includes a very high level of control over the behavior of the students and ethos that encourage the students to see themselves as part of a theme. So the theme ethos of the school means that the interest of the school community take precedence over the needs of the individual and the school takes into consideration, you know, the pupils are from different faiths, even though half of them are Muslims, so they are from different faith, culture, ethnic background. So they are from different faith, culture, ethnic background, and the school ethos try to minimize social distinctions between these students from diverse backgrounds in terms of faith, culture and ethnic background. So in order to achieve the ethos of the school, the head teacher came up with a prayer ritual policy and that decision was made last year. So the school is not targeting any particular religions and it is interesting that there is no evidence from the students at the school from any other religion wants to prepare, you know, want to perform any prayer rituals during the school other than Islam. So no, if you are Christian or Hindu or whatever religion, they are not expressing any interest in performing any prayer rituals during the school day, during the school day. So this desire to perform any prayer ritual in this particular school is coming from Muslim students and not from majority of them. So this particular young lady, her objection to the school policy is actually very narrow.

Lola Tinubu: 11:00

Muslims are required to pray five times a day, with one exception. And this young lady, she accepts the requirement of the school day. She accepts that she will not be able to do all the five prayers, but there is one prayer, one particular prayer. I hope I can pronounce it. I'm pronouncing it properly. Duh-ha is spelled as D-H-U-R or sometimes spelled with a Z, z-h-u-r. So this prayer is required to be performed in a specific window from when the sun passes at its highest point in the day to the opening of the window for the next of the five prayers. You know, so during the autumn-winter month, the window for performing this prayer, daha, overlaps with the school lunch break. So in a particular season, autumn-winter, so it will overlap with the school lunch break, and then.

Lola Tinubu: 12:03

So this young lady wanted 25 minutes to perform the prayer rituals and her claim is that not being given this time for her breaches her right that is protected under Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights. And then she also brought the case on the basis that policy is an indirect discrimination against Muslim pupils, against Equality Act 2010. So she's saying that it's not a direct discrimination, but it's an indirect way of discriminating against Muslims. So that is the background to the case and the school obviously says you know their policy does not interfere with freedom to practice religion with the purposes of Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights, and that it doesn't breach our rights under the Equality Act. The court in this case really took their time with all sorts of evidence, including statements from the young lady, from the mom, as Audrey rightly pointed. I think it's sounding. I read the decision it's nearly 90 pages. It's almost that it is more not from the child but from the parent, and I think that's another thing that we need to discuss on another day about whether your parent's religion is actually your religion, but that's one of the things that you know comes to mind when you are reading this judgment. So the ruling is that the ban did not unlawfully interfere with the student right to religious freedom.

Lola Tinubu: 14:04

Justice Linden determined that the disadvantage to Muslim pupils was outweighed by the school's objective of promoting inclusivity and social cohesion among all students. He emphasized that the school's decision aimed to prevent any division that might arise from separate religious practices to maintain harmonious and inclusive environment. Additionally, the court acknowledged the logistical challenges and security concerns that the school faced the school in question, makela Community School, which has around 700 pupils, with half being Muslim. Reportedly I think Audrey touched on it they started receiving death threats and bomb hoaxes because of this case and because you know they were raising, that they had not been allowed to practice their religion, their ideas and improvement on their religious right.

Lola Tinubu: 15:02

The conclusion of the decision is that the policy it is, as Audrey said, the young lady, the parent, they knew the school, they knew that it's a secular school, they knew about the ethos of the school, they knew everything about the school. And yet this was the school that they have chosen. And this school was not a high-performing school before. It was all the things put in place by the head teacher, including it being a secular school. You know, making your religion. You know majority of the students at the school. They are from religious background. It at home is one of the things that have taken the school from being underperforming to being one of the best schools in the UK. And I'm sure the parents they chose this school because it's a high-performing school. And then you are fighting this school, you know, based on the very thing that attracted you to the school.

James Hodgson: 16:13

Yeah, it's very interesting and it bears repeating, as you mentioned, that the vast majority of the children were from families or parents who were themselves religious and were fully accepting of the policies that were in place or indeed, as you say, supportive of the policies, which basically allowed, really prioritized, a sense of respect, tolerance and keeping beliefs as personal amongst the people, or practising your belief as personal amongst the students, so that they can be equal during the school day. And, as you mentioned, it was only revealed once the ruling was released that this was obviously a school that was already quite well known for being high performing and implementing some new strategies to get to that position known for being high performing and implementing some new strategies to get to that position. So, looking forward, audrey, what are the potential impacts of this ruling or the other cases that you mentioned, on the school environments and particularly for students of diverse religious backgrounds?

Audrey Simmons: 17:05

I think this ruling really sets the foundation of how we keep a space secular and that keeping a space secular is actually more beneficial. We have this idea that Christianity is homogenized, islam is homogenized. All Muslims do things exactly the same, they all practice in exactly the same way, and that is not true. So when we talk about Christianity, we know that we have a whole range, a whole different groups of people that are considered to be Christians, and we have the same with Islam. So when we say keeping it personal, it means that you are able to practice your religion in the way that you see fit and that is not infringed by the school, because the school is there for a particular purpose and, as it say, to get good grades, to get ready for work, to get you ready for society.

Audrey Simmons: 17:52

I hope this ruling gives other schools the confidence to set those foundations, to say actually no, we're not going to do this. What we're doing is setting out clear aims about what our school is hoping to achieve for your children, for all children, regardless of their background, and that that will take them forward. So that's what I'm hoping actually other schools can look at, because at the moment, before this, we've had a lot of mishmashing and schools have not felt protected I would think Especially at Bentley because we try to appease religion, not people. We try to appease religion. We then have teachers being banned, suspended, losing their jobs you know what I mean running away from their homes and their families and having to be moved because of these acts of violence and threats, and that shouldn't be a way any school should have to deal with and we should have robust things in place to mitigate that, and that schools should feel confident to make the rules that benefit every pupil that goes to their school. So I'm hoping this is what schools take away from this ruling.

James Hodgson: 18:57

And Lola. Considering the broader legal landscape, what does this ruling signify for the future cases involving freedom of religion and belief in educational settings?

Lola Tinubu: 19:06

I'm not so sure. I think I'm looking at it too deeply from reading 90 pages of the ruling. I think I'm looking at it too deeply. From reading 90 pages of the ruling I don't think it's made things necessarily. If you look at the overall ruling, it's everything that Audrea said, but I think it still is very positive.

Lola Tinubu: 19:24

They now have to pay more attention to their policies around discrimination and it's a very fine line because people think that discrimination is an absolute thing. There are situations where discrimination is necessary, but it's only when it's in the best interest of the aims legitimate aims of an organization, whether it's a school or business. So it makes it hard, whether it's a school or business. So it makes it hard. Everyone has to go back to the drawing board and then draft their policies and I think, as Audrey has said, I think it still gives schools more confidence to say this is what we want to achieve. I want to take it a little bit further, because Audrey is talking about what they want to achieve for the student. I think what the education system is there for, it goes beyond the individual, it's about the society as a whole and it's not just about immediate society, it's not just about the UK. It's actually about humanity. That's what our education system is about, about humanity. That's what our education system is about. So, when we think about humanity as a whole and as diverse as the 8 billion of us, the world already has problems with this battle, this ongoing battle from different religions and, as we've said, as Audrea said I keep going back to what Audrea said because she's talked so well you know the diversity.

Lola Tinubu: 21:01

No religion is one thing. They don't even agree among themselves. And we are going to live together, we are going to work together. We have bigger projects to do in terms of our health, in terms of our defense, in terms of our defense, in terms of our safety, in terms of everything that we need to achieve so that we can make the best of this world. That is the purpose of education. Therefore, religion has to be the freedom to practice privately, the freedom to practice privately. And then, when we are at work and when we are at community places like school, where we are in public places, we need to leave a lot of things behind. And it doesn't reduce our rights. I don't know why we cannot appreciate that. It doesn't really. It enhances us because we can leave certain parts of ourselves behind, and then we are focusing on what we have in common, because actually what we have in common is what is taking us forward.

James Hodgson: 22:01

I think that's beautifully said. Couldn't agree more. It is those shared experiences and allowing people to express who they are, particularly at an early age, when those formative ages where we can try to understand others and their beliefs, and it does enhance us to share those environments and share those experiences. So you've both spoken extremely beautifully. Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts and thank you all for listening today. Just a reminder you can follow us on all social media and if you would like to support us, you can do so by signing up on Patreon. Please do like, share and review the podcast on your favourite podcast app. Thank you for joining us and we'll see you next time on Humanism Now.