Humanism Now
Welcome to Humanism Now, the weekly podcast from Humanise Live. Tune in for the latest news, insightful worldwide guest interviews, and lively discussions on the most pressing questions of our time — all from a naturalistic, empathetic, and rationalist world view that marks out humanism. Join us as we explore ethical dilemmas, dissect current events, and engage in thoughtful conversations that matter.
Humanism Now
30. S.I. Martin on Uncovering Britain's Hidden Histories & the Power of Storytelling
"Isn't it true that we are the stories we tell ourselves?" — S.I. Martin
This week on Humanism Now, we’re joined by S.I. Martin—historian, author, and patron of Humanists UK—whose work has reshaped how we understand Black British history and the power of storytelling.
From his upbringing in a religious family in Bedford to decades spent uncovering erased narratives, Steve shares how early exposure to music, books, and doubt led him to scepticism and ultimately humanism.
We discuss:
- The importance of embedding Black British history into everyday landscapes and classrooms
- Robert Wedderburn, revolutionary preacher and free thinker
- Unique challenges faced by Black atheists in religious communities
- How historical fiction can reshape cultural imagination and offer new identities
- Why humanist groups must evolve to become more inclusive, especially for younger generations
- The hidden social history of Black-owned pubs in 18th- and 19th-century London
Explore S.I. Martin’s work:
📺 A History of Black Freethought (Humanists UK Convention 2023)
📺 The Beliefs of Black Georgians (Humanist Heritage)
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Welcome to the Humanism Now podcast. I'm your host, james Hodgson. Si Martin is a renowned British historian and author specialising in Black British history and literature. He's published five books, including Britain's Slave Trade, to accompany the Channel 4 documentary of the same name. Steve founded the 500 Years of Black London Walks and actively works with museums, schools and other institutions across the UK to promote more diverse histories and champions the naming of streets and monuments to reflect Black historical contributions. I'm also very proud to say that Steve is a patron of Humanist UK. Thank you so much, steve, for joining us on Humanism Now. It's nice to be here. James, as mentioned, we're delighted that you are our first UK patron to join us here on the podcast, and so, for our listeners who are not familiar with your work, would you mind sharing a little bit about your upbringing and what inspired your journey to humanism?
Speaker 2:In a sense they're linked, because I was in the fortunate position to have been brought up by very religious parents. I was born in Bedford and my parents came from the island of Antigua in the West Indies, and I grew up in the wonderful 1960s and 1970s, which were in many ways harrowing but in all other ways, you know, a very good sort of proving zone for myself in many ways, and my family. My parents, were very religious, my mum in particular. I laughingly lovingly described her as a Christian supremacist, which she would have loved. That accusation She'd have worn it with pride. My dad not so much. He did follow along because church was very much.
Speaker 2:If you can imagine in the South Midlands, this black community in Bedford, the church was very much a social center. There were not that many other places that black people could go to socialize and to celebrate, have ceremonies, so its function in that way was very meaningful to me. We were, though, encouraged to enjoy a broad range of media. For example, we read voraciously On Sundays. We wouldn't just get the Observer, We'd also get P now gone, like the people and news of the world's red top sundays, which no longer exist. We'd be listening to music ranging from really raw. It used to be called slackness reggae, really slack or reggae as well as elgar tchaikovsky and, of course, Jim Reeves, which was a staple of every black household's music library. We had that as a foundation. There's no such thing as what they call it now guilty pleasures and the world is yours. Enjoy.
Speaker 2:And at the age of 13, myself and my brother there were, the two of us were offered, were given the choice, mostly by my dad do you want to continue in the church? At which point, with just incredible alacrity, just no, we're done with it, Because there are other things to do on a Sunday, like lie in. And I was already having doubts and all sorts of objections to, um, not just the improbability of the gospels but also the roles of the church in black society. This was something which was really at a very young age. If I could, could go to a household within this small South Midlands town household of the black people and see the same white Jesus image in every single living space.
Speaker 2:That worried me. Yeah, that's how, basically, my interest in skepticism and unbelief started. And similarly with history, given the absence of any sort of black history component in British society at all in the 60s, 70s and 80s. But my big question is why wasn't it there? There was this missing element which isn't addressed, and it's a fascinating one, and I think, and I still believe, that it should be made more central rather than peripheral, but that's a whole other story.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much for sharing and I think it's fascinating. If I understand correct, there's a direct link between having a diversity of cultural influences when you're growing up with critical thinking, skepticism.
Speaker 2:A hundred percent. I've got so much to thank my parents for in that regard, because it just gave me this wonderful set of tools to examine all sorts of questions and all sorts of issues and also to converse with myself. So it's built in ready-made good to go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's a great way to look at it adding tools to your tool belt rather than, as you say, prescriptive beliefs beliefs. That's great to hear that you have your parents to thank, despite them being very involved with the church. So you mentioned improving also the way in which history is taught here in the uk and throughout your career you've devoted to promoting the inclusion of britain's role in the slave trade in the school curricula. I wonder, in your time working in this area, how has the conversation changed? Have you seen an improvement overall?
Speaker 2:An improvement. Yes, I can't be too cynical about it. Of course it wouldn't be a large or rapid enough improvement to satisfy me, but it's definitely there. When I was first doing sessions in schools in the 90s, there would often be this objection. Sessions in schools in the 90s, there would often be this objection not just by the young people but also by the teachers to me coming in on the grounds that the young people in UK schools were studying African American history almost exclusively.
Speaker 2:The template for black identity and blackness in so many ways is just's just taken to be the African-American background and identity, and that's something I had to really fight against, because that was just a fixed part of the curriculum and my passion is introducing these histories in a hyper-local way.
Speaker 2:So if I'm going to a school in any part of these islands, I will be looking at elements within that locality. I'll be looking at landmarks, churches, famous buildings, points in the landscape that are unavoidable, that they will be going past every day, which will link wherever they are to the Caribbean, continental Africa, north America and, of course, people who have been here generationally. So my goal is really to lock it in the landscape and the living memory of that's my programming goal and in many ways I think it's quite successful and a lot of those elements seem to have seeped their way into some of the teaching practice. It seems to be a little more UK-centered. Although there's the yearly horror show of Black History Month, which will be full of face painting, will be doing some not entirely authentic singing and dancing and drumming, and it's just. Everything is reduced to just the performative and the inauthentic, largely. But that aside, yes, there has been a change and it has been positive, but this needs to be something we just need to be talking about as groups of people and together.
Speaker 1:That's interesting. Yeah, interesting to hear your views on Black History Month. Do you see that the end goal would be that all of this is just incorporated into presenting the whole picture when we're teaching history, rather than having, as you say, specific black history?
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Rather than just compartmentalizing parts of history, it's just history, and especially in these islands, there are just so many diverse histories and traditions which inform everyday life of which we are completely unaware that in order to make sense of where we are now, we need to put that puzzle together or know how to approach it at least.
Speaker 2:It's just something that really concerns me its absence and also the aversion to it from many audiences. On one hand, you'll have some very, I'm going to say, offended which is what they are or some very upset parties of traditionalist historians who just don't want literally any black in the union jack, any black in the union jack. And on the other hand, you'll find or I find a lot of black audiences, particularly younger black audiences, who are very uncomfortable about any proximity between blackness and britishness and how those identities could, or even if they should, mix, and who are more comfortable with assuming identities of places that many of them weren't born in, have never been to and only know through grandparents often. So this is an interesting one. It's a very interesting one, and I love having those conversations as well, and it's always a more complex picture people would want to paint, isn't it?
Speaker 1:and I guess that's why there's always more more complex picture people would want to paint, isn't it? And I guess that's why there's always more to be discovered.
Speaker 2:Yes, and that's the source of discomfort, the complexity we shrink.
Speaker 1:Absolutely so. I know you've written, as well as your factual books, you've written historical fiction as well, which is an area that personally fascinates me in terms of getting the balance right between what is historical and what is fiction. But I'm interested what do you see as the role and value of literature and storytelling in advocating for more inclusion and equitable understanding of history?
Speaker 2:Isn't it true that we are the stories we tell ourselves? We are literally writing ourselves daily that process of putting ourselves together, creating pathways for ourselves. I mean this is very close to the essence of writing fiction and again, especially for young people, for whom I'm doing an increasing amount of writing, having that variety of characters, that spectrum of possibilities, or black possibilities in particular, and remember, black possibilities in terms of life trajectories. In popular fiction and entertainment they've generally been presented very narrowly and very stereotypically, always associated with bondage and limitation and various types of almost pornographic suffering.
Speaker 2:And with my writing, what I try to do is show that, yes, these were elements historically, yes, this was part of the picture, but also that there are solutions, and one of the solutions which often comes up in my writing is again about literacy, about individuals. Either they come upon writing, they use writing, they start of course, I can't resist to have them questioning their beliefs, and all of these things just come into play. Basically, who do we think we are and why do we think we are who we think we are? That, I think, is a question for all age groups and one I love to play with in my fiction.
Speaker 1:And how do you think historical narratives can be used to address more contemporary social justice issues?
Speaker 2:In two ways. Firstly, by using the factual basis of history. What actually happened? What are the literal horrors of the slave trade and what sort of people did it produce? What happens to somebody when they are again literally depersonalized? They become an object, an entry on a ship's log. What is that experience like? Who is that person before, during and after that process? And who could that person be today?
Speaker 2:So for me it's about bringing it into the present, when we are particularly using characters of various backgrounds. For example, my character of Jupiter Williams is someone who comes from by any description of late 18th, early 19th century life, a prosperous, well-educated, happy family. But his family, his parents' experiences are centred in enslavement. And it's by a series of accidents and also his parents' creativity and business acumen that he happens to have this comfortable life in Sierra Leone. But he has to serially examine who he is, what he is about when he ends up in London, in the heart of the empire, the belly of the beast, and he has to make sense of himself at every single step.
Speaker 2:But in terms of social justice, I'm not so sure that literature nowadays has that power. I'd like to think it does and I need to think it does, because I write the damn things. But we are so addicted to moving pictures as a primary source of information, and not just any moving pictures. It's not as if we all watch documentaries. We are addicted to drama and the forms that drama now takes, particularly black historical drama, the disaster of Bridgerton, black historical drama, the Disaster of Bridgerton We'll talk about this on another occasion, but it's the catastrophic impact on any serious, heartfelt, honest, sensitive approach to Black historical fiction. We have to try and rectify that, trying to describe Black history without talking about 18th or 19th century British black history, while side-swerving enslavement. It's a difficult one to counter, but that has the high ground and it's set a template for a black historical fiction.
Speaker 1:But I'm very aware that you're helping bring a lot of these real-world stories to life. You've given incredible speeches with us at Central Londonondon humanists and your talk at uh humanist uk convention, which we will link to in the show notes and, as mentioned in the intro, founding the 500 years of black london walks, just to bring more attention to some of these historical figures throughout london. And I'm curious to know which of these historical figures that you mentioned throughout history, or perhaps in the 18th and 19th century, who you would say were kind of leading lights in British free thought black free thought in the UK Can you point to to show that there was this strain of free thought that always existed?
Speaker 2:I always go for defaults. It's very someone I think about all the time is Robert Wedderburn. He masqueraded for a period as a preacher, as the Reverend Robert Wedderburn, but I think unusually, almost uniquely in black revolutionary politics or black history, here is someone who actually used the religion as a vehicle or as a cloak even for revolutionary thought and action. He was born on a plantation in Jamaica, the son of a Scottish planter and one of the women whose lives he owned, and he was brought up, although free, with the black side of his family and he witnessed, as his later publications was entitled, the horrors of slavery at first hand Because he was a mariner, as was much of the free labor and black labor in the Caribbean, caribbean.
Speaker 2:He ends up in London late 1700s, early 1800s, and he gets drawn into all of these corresponding societies and vicious little sects and revolutionary bodies. But he's always driven by his experience and observation of slavery when it came to humanism and skepticism. This is just so obvious in his writings. I mean the titles of some of his screeds, such as High-Heeled Shoes for Dwarves in Holiness and another was A Shove for Fat-bottomed Parsons. But okay, as I always mention, he was somewhat insane but he was completely consistent, as lunatics often are.
Speaker 2:He then produces an extraordinary periodical, the Axe Laid to the Root, which is completely revolutionary because he just gives the church both barrels and explains how it is essential to just not keeping people in bondage on the plantations but also dehumanizing the white working class, as it would come to be described. So he's making that link and being very forthright about it. So, in order for him to have these opinions and to have an audience in the early 1800s under the six acts, which were repressing the nature of public gatherings and publications, he bought himself a license to be a Unitarian minister. He just bought the license and then he started to perform is the accurate word these sermons in Hopkins Street in central London, which were basically gatherings of revolutionaries who were listening to him speak on all subjects, including is it right for a slave to rise up and kill his master and pushing it further? Isn't it then, therefore, also for the poor people of Great Britain to rise up and kill the Prince Regent, which earned him a couple of years in jail?
Speaker 1:But yeah, robert Wedderburn is vast, vast, he is central and he's someone that I'm always pushing and always promoting I had to smile because I was really hoping you would come back to robert wedderburn, but oh, yes, can't leave him. We could do a whole other episode, I think, on that story again as was shared with us when at the talk with central london humanists. I think fascinating character and one that just is not known about enough in British history.
Speaker 2:No, but he's very messy. That's the other thing, and this is something I like him is because he's messy. He is human. He has his failings, but it makes him easier to relate to rather than glorify him, and I like that. He's one of us.
Speaker 1:Yes, I think it was back to as you mentioned earlier. I think a lot of times we're looking for simple stories.
Speaker 2:Yes, and heroes.
Speaker 1:Yes With your work in advocating for changing the school curriculum. Do you think that knowledge of free thoughts and humanistic values throughout history should also be promoted within schools?
Speaker 2:Yes, I don't separate them. I think they should be top, front and center. They should be guiding how we come to acquire knowledge. Skepticism should just be embedded. It's an outrage that it isn't that simple doubt is not an engine. It just baffles me and I don't know how well I do know how it's indoctrination and it's tragic, but how to successfully battle it, because it's so embedded in the ways in which we have come to learn and come to digest information, or not digest, just process it in such a limited way. But yes, I think humanism, placing the human and human values I would say universal human values at the center of what we do, where we are going, particularly with education and producing new generations, should be top, front and centre of absolutely everything.
Speaker 1:And, of course, you accepted the invitation to be a patron of Humanists UK. I'd be interested to know, as our first patron on the podcast, why you felt it was important to take that public role and do you see your role within your work as also promoting humanist values?
Speaker 2:I'm trying to find a euphemism, but I can't. When I look at the battleground of believers and unbelievers nowadays, particularly in these islands, it disturbs me to see that there is now a fault line and it's a visible, a racialized fault line between believing and unbelieving communities which is on the street level. It's there. Followers of evangelical Christianity will, especially in London, will almost overwhelmingly be people of African and continental African Caribbean origin, although fewer and fewer people of Black British backgrounds generationally, I'm finding. But questions around abortion, women's rights, gay rights, all of these questions which need to be surrounded and protected by doubt and skepticism, at the mercy of the believers, they have the upper hand faith schools, name it.
Speaker 2:Before we even get on to the even more pressing concerns around Wahhabi, jihadi, salafi Islam coming into the picture, which is even more racialized numerically and in terms of influence. But multiple influences, I don't need to number them thought or black doubt. How does that play a part in this negotiation between communities of skeptics and communities of faith? I haven't got any nice glib answers, but it just needs to be spoken about, it just needs to be brought out to the center and also within humanist assemblies themselves which, as I've said before, are overwhelmingly, radiantly, glisteningly, I can say, white, that dialogue is not being had at all. So I don't think there is just that energy, which is a specific energy to tackle these issues, an energy which needs to be informed by, I would say, black, outside black voices, other voices and concerned parties really interesting.
Speaker 1:Thank you for sharing. I think there's a couple of probably follow-up questions to that, looking both at what we can do as as humanist groups. As you mentioned, do you think there are unique and different challenges for black atheists or non-believers today to be open about their beliefs or non-belief, as opposed to what might have been the challenges in the past, particularly with the historical figures that you study?
Speaker 2:yes and again, it varies according to geography, where you are. In continental africa it's an absolute nightmare. I I don't know how anyone can be an open doubter. In many African cultures and societies, particularly with the two major sky god religions, there are horrific penalties, not just social exclusion, but up to and including death for people who doubt.
Speaker 2:In North America as well, there's a I think it's something like Above 75% of African Americans believe in Christians or profess Christianity, and a lot of political leadership, social leadership. It's just worn like a badge. It's part of to be black, is to be a Christian, particularly in America. It's more interesting here and I notice it generationally. Here and I notice it generationally there is a lot more doubt, a lot more skepticism and a healthy distance which is placed by a lot of young people between themselves and Orthodox Christianity.
Speaker 2:Islam is a whole other issue, because you can see a lot of particularly young black people moving straight from Christianity into jihadi wahhabi Islam, which is not the desired result. We want to have doubt. So the particular thing in the UK is how to perform that dance while acknowledging the natural, organic doubt and often anti-authoritarian, natural anti-authoritarian aversion to the forms that these religions take. How do you keep that fire burning so that the young people don't just jump into becoming nubian, islamic, hebrews or whatever. It's a strange sect standing outside of brixton tube station. So it's keeping that sort of light of freedom going for them, providing somewhere to welcome them.
Speaker 1:And do you think there's a responsibility for those of us who are running humanist groups as well to maybe perhaps listen to some of particularly what young people are more passionate about in changing the makeup of our groups? Because, as you say, whilst people might be leaving the religion, it's not necessarily that humanism is appealing or a place where people will land?
Speaker 2:yes, there has to be a welcome, there has to be an approach and because, yeah, that hunger is there and I see it as I always say, generationally it's absolutely the humanist assemblies need to be places where everyone can feel a welcome and where everyone can feel comfortable and feel heard and understood as well. So it's just having that, having the offer there at all that, yeah, this is somewhere where you can go, where you can belong.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, well said, steve. Thank you so much for joining us on Humanism Now. It's been fascinating. I feel like we could easily go for another two hours, and we'd love to have you back on the show Just before we leave. What are you working on currently? Are there any future projects that we can look forward to?
Speaker 2:old Kentish London, finding places of settlement of people of African origin again a huge spectrum. So I've got a couple of those mapping projects going on. I'm also getting back into writing for young people more novels I can't stay away. But in particular I'm very focused on looking at places of entertainment and resort of Black Londoners. Basically it's my Black pubs fascination the fact that they seem to have been more Black-owned and frequented pubs in the late 1700s, early 1800s in London than there are today. And just rebuilding all of these places, repopulating in a ghostly way all of these places, some of which are still pubs pulling pints now.
Speaker 1:yeah, that's always going on as well that sounds like just an excuse to visit lots of london pubs. Well, fantastic. We look forward to all of that and more, and thank you once again. Before we go, our standard closing question what's something that you've recently changed your mind about, and what influenced that change?
Speaker 2:is this something I changed my mind about? Because I think about this daily. I've recently had a terrible bereavement which necessitated me leaving london, and I'm now here in sunny Hastings and I haven't had a change of mind on anything. But I'm thinking more and more about how the particularly improbable set of coincidences and serendipitous moments that led me to end up here how they happened at all, because my transition here was beyond smooth it was, as I say, just improbable, just the sheer number of coincidences which enabled me just to move here in a matter of months without any problems at all in inquiring the property, in having this wonderful location, in having almost a built-in set of friends and work associates who live pressingly close. Anyone who knows Hastings and St Leonard's will probably know me. Now Just ending up here was very strange, very odd, and I question how that came to be. It's not made me a believer in any way, shape or form, but I think it's equally important for us, as skeptics, to be also skeptical about skepticism sometimes. So that's where I am.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much for sharing and, once again, thank you for all your fantastic work and we look forward to hearing much more from you at future events with the London Humanists and here at Humanism Now. So, si Martin, thank you for joining us on Humanism Now. Thank you, james, I'll see you soon. Thank you.
