29. Faith to Faithless on Finding Community after Leaving High-Control Groups (part of Podcastathon 2025)

This special episode of Humanism Now is released as part of Podcastathon 2025, the world’s largest podcast charity initiative. We’re proud to dedicate this episode to Faith to Faithless, a programme by Humanists UK supporting those leaving high-control religious groups.

Three incredible guests—George, Leena, and Sarah—share raw, courageous accounts of their journeys out of fundamentalist religions and the new communities they're helping to build.

Faith to Faithless is proudly marking its 10th anniversary in 2025, celebrating a decade of support, solidarity, and advocacy for apostates.

⭐ Episode Highlights

• Life inside high-control religious groups
• The emotional toll of shunning and "thought crimes"
• How Faith to Faithless supports apostates across the UK
• Starting new peer groups and reclaiming lost experiences
• Why public services and mental health professionals must understand apostasy better

📺 Introducing Faith to Faithless | Helping people leaving high-control religious groups (2 mins)

Need support?
If you or someone you know has been affected by the topics discussed in this episode, Faith to Faithless are here to help.

Faith to Faithless Helpline (UK): 0800 448 0748
📞Opening hours (Wed 10am–1pm, Thu 4pm–7pm, Fri 8am–11am)

📧 Email: helpline@faithtofaithless.com
🌐 More info: www.faithtofaithless.com

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Also mentioned in this episode:

• Recovering from Religion offers peer and professional support offering  hope, healing, and support to those struggling with issues of doubt and non-belief. Contact RFR here.

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Podcastathon is the world’s largest podcast charity initiative — a global wave of inspiring episodes released simultaneously by podcasters everywhere, all in support of causes they care about. 

The aim? To raise awareness for hundreds of charities by uniting storytellers in one powerful, coordinated moment each March. 

🎧 Be part of the movement: podcasthon.org/register

 Let’s amplify stories that matter.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introducing Faith to Faithless guests
• 1:25 George's personal journey - getting off the hamster wheel
• 3:48 Leena on learning to embrace questioning & doubt
• 5:40 Sarah's path out of dogma through science
• 8:14 Internal struggles and 'thought-stopping' pressures of high control groups
• 12:07 Different forms of leaving; being disfellowship, excommunication & shunning
• 15:49 Support for those leaving high control groups
• 21:55 Power of connecting with people who have similar lived experiences
• 26:04 How to contact Faith to Faithless and connect with other support groups
• 31:00 Future plans; building community and healing together
• 35:01 Raising awareness and societal change
• 39:59 Need for education and access to lifelong learning
• 42:42 Changing minds on meat eating

Transcript

James H: 0:01

Welcome to Humanism Now, the podcast from the Central London Humanists. I'm your host, james. This week we have a special episode featuring three incredible guests who have bravely left high-control religious groups with the support from Faith to Faithless and now work to help others navigate the diverse challenges of apostasy. We'll be diving into their personal journeys, exploring their current work with Faith to Faithless and offering advice for anyone affected by the stigma of apostasy. For the security of our guests, their names have been changed and we will not be releasing a video of this podcast episode.

James H: 0:35

George has volunteered with Faith to Faith for over five years. She created their social support group outside of London and is currently setting up groups in Leicester and Cambridgeshire. Raised as Jehovah's Witness, george was fully indoctrinated and didn't leave the group until her 30s. Lina, a former Muslim from a conservative religious society where apostasy is punishable by death, has a passion for science which led her to question her beliefs and, after years of struggle, lost her faith. Lina of her home country is seeking asylum in the UK in late 2023. She is now actively helping other apostates rebuilding their lives.

James H: 1:10

Sarah grew up in a modern orthodox religious community in the United States. She became an atheist at 16 and stopped practicing Judaism at 18. Thank you all so much for joining us on Humanism. Now I'd like to start by finding out a little bit more about your personal stories, and I'd be grateful if you could share a bit more about the journeys that led you to where you are today, working in apostasy support. George, if I could come to you first, could you share what was the pivotal moment or experience that made you realise that you needed to leave the Jehovah's Witnesses?

George: 1:44

There wasn't a pivotal moment as such. It was more of a gradual realization. Being a Jehovah's Witness is very much like being on a hamster wheel. You have to do things all the time. You're either at meetings or you're studying, or you're preaching. So there's not a lot of free time, done very deliberately, because the busier you are, the less time you have to think. And I got to a point where I was exhausted. I was exhausted being on this hamster wheel.

George: 2:14

I'd realized quite a while before that I was gay, and that is a big note. You can be gay as a Jehovah's Witness, but you can't do gay. So you have to sign up to a life of celibacy and loneliness and often being shunned by people. And I just I couldn't carry on.

George: 2:34

At that point I was in counseling, I was suicidal, but it was a gradual unpicking of my beliefs when I stopped attending meetings and I stopped studying over the next three months or so, it all just fell apart.

George: 2:50

So it was largely just I was too tired to carry on, rather than some moment where I suddenly thought maybe this doctrine isn't right and I consider myself quite lucky because I lost my faith in the Bible and Christianity rather than the Jehovah's Witness. So I know a lot of people who struggle with unpicking the doctrine and they have to go very deep into the doctrine to sort of get themselves out of it. But if you no longer believe the Bible once you've taken the Bible out of it, then it's very easy for anything else to just slip away. So the actual unpicking of the faith was very easy. My belief had gone, but the exhaustion lasted a long time because it's so mentally and physically exhausting being on a hamster wheel, particularly when it's something that you realize you just don't sign up to the values. It's not you, it's just the indoctrination that's keeping you going.

James H: 3:43

So that would be why I really left the witnesses thank you very much for sharing and lena for you what was the most challenging part of your journey, both in terms of questioning and eventually leaving your faith in a society where hostility is so severely punished yeah, thank you.

Leena: 4:00

So questioning your faith in a society where it's punishable by death and what's heavily stigmatized carries a lot of challenges, and these challenges vary depending on which stage you're at with questioning your faith.

Leena: 4:11

If we're talking about the very beginning, it's the internal struggle of realizing that it's actually okay for you to question.

Leena: 4:19

It's almost that you don't even give yourself the permission to question.

Leena: 4:22

You didn't even give yourself the permission to question and, funnily enough, like I went, I looked into their religion to find justification and permission for me to question and I would read these stories in the Quran about prophets questioning and asking for evidence, and it was things from within the religion that made me be like, okay, maybe it's okay for me to question and in a way, I feel like religions shoot themselves in the foot by doing things like that as generally what they mean question.

Leena: 4:49

But as long as you come back to the religion as your answer, then that's the only form of questioning that's acceptable, because it's absolutely unsafe for you to reach out to anybody or to express that you're doubting or show any signs of you doubting your faith and many people in these countries. They're not even safe to reach out to others online and many people describe the feeling of not even being able to believe that they're apostates now that their identity has been changed, because nothing in their environments reflects this new reality. So in a way, it just feels like it's all in your head until you connect with others and express your feeling and start to live your new identity.

James H: 5:36

Thank you very much, lina and Sarah. Finally, for you, what were the key influences or experiences that led you to eventually abandon your religion or your religious upbringing, particularly at such a young age?

Sara: 5:48

Related to what Lina said about going within the religion to get that permission to ask questions and religions kind of shooting themselves in the foot with that. I think the particular type of Judaism that I was raised with was always talking about it's called modern orthodoxy. It's always talking about how the religion is compatible with science and how these things aren't a contradiction. That's like the founding, like tenant of that particular type of Judaism is that we can follow all these crazy rules like still have that hamster wheel but also be a part of modern society, and they make a big show of that and so they'll tell you things like it's healthy to question, we're open to all the questions, but then in reality I think they'll not react so well to some questions that you might ask. I think I was really struggling socially within the community. It's like a very tight knit social community and I think that kind of primed me to be more disenchanted with it and to be open to like looking for evidence against it. And I had switched to a slightly less religious school in my last few years of high school, which I guess that's some part of secondary school for you guys in the UK, it's like ages 16 to 18 or something like that.

Sara: 7:06

I had switched schools and in my new school they had this very controversial class about biblical criticism and they also had a lot of classes about why science and the Torah, which is the Old Testament, don't contradict each other at all and all this kind of stuff, particularly the biblical criticism class.

Sara: 7:27

There was, for me, one moment where my faith was shattered and that was during the biblical criticism class and just realizing that science was something that I had like the scientific method was never. As far as I know, that method is like the most accurate way to find out what is true and then to suddenly throw it away, for things like where does the bible come from just didn't make sense to me, and also just like seeing blatantly texts in the bible that I guess on some personal level, when things affect you, it's different. I think there's also a lot of sexism, and just seeing that so blatantly in the bible and hearing like, oh, here is what the archaeologists think and the people who have not approached this being born into it was, yeah, I guess really what solidified it for me thank you all very much for sharing those deeply personal stories.

James H: 8:17

I think that helps set the scene just for your journeys and how you become to be involved with work with faith to faithless.

James H: 8:24

If I can dwell on one point that seemed to be quite common throughout all the stories that you mentioned and I don't know if this is also common with other apostates that you work with it seems as though there is this development of an internal pressure not to question, and I think sometimes we think about this in terms for those of us who not not had experiences in such cultures or groups. I think it's quite hard to imagine that we ourselves would put pressure on ourselves internally that you cannot question this, you cannot think this. And it reminds me obviously of the Humanist International Freedom of Thought Report. Again, when you mention it to people, they say of course everyone is free to think what they want, it's just what they express. Course everyone is free to think what they want, it's just what they express. Would someone be able to explain a little bit what that feeling is like, where you're, I guess, having that internal battle saying you cannot question this, and then also what it's like to finally make a breakthrough, george?

George: 9:16

there's thought. Stopping techniques is a is like a psychological thing where your brain just will not allow you to go down certain avenues because, as has been said, it's dangerous, you're going to lose your community, you're going to lose your friends and your family, so your brain just will not allow you to go down it. But a lot of ex-mormons talk about the shelf breaking, which I think is a fantastic analogy. You have these doubts and you can't actually deal with them, so you put them on a shelf and then eventually there are so many doubts that the shelf breaks, and I think that's a really good way of thinking about it. You compartmentalize all of these things that you're starting to question, but you can't really allow yourself to until the point where it's overwhelming and you have to deal with it.

James H: 10:00

Yeah, go ahead, Lina.

Leena: 10:01

Yeah, also, like in most religions and it's something that people forget that one of the teachings is that god, or the gods, are constantly watching you and watching every thought and everything you think about and there's a thing called a thought crime, like a thought sin that you get punished for. So in a way, you feel like you're sinning and at that stage when you first start questioning, like you still believe in it, like you still have not arrived to the stage where you've rejected that. So you still have that fear. And also when you're, it causes a lot of distress when you're still going through the motions, like doing the prayers, attending the meetings, etc. It almost makes you feel like a fake, that you're lying to everybody into yourself. So it's that sort of pressure. But also george mentioned is the fact that you realize that if you started questioning and then you found out that it's not true, like we're fully aware of how much we're going to risk and how much we're going to lose yeah, so it's scary.

Leena: 11:02

It's scary to even start the process.

James H: 11:04

And does that fear persist even after you've crossed over into losing your faith? Are there elements of that which follow you for a little while? Would anyone like to George?

George: 11:18

Yeah, I don't face the dangers that other people face, but I have not been disfellowshipped, which means I have not been formally excommunicated from my faith, mainly because I moved across the country, which is a much easier way of dealing with it. But if I was actually disfellowshipped then my family would be under incredible pressure to never speak to me again, to completely shun me. And it's just overwhelming when you think it's not just the pain that's going to me again to completely shun me, and it's just overwhelming when you think it's not just the pain that's going to cause you, it's the pain that it's going to cause them. They don't want to do it, they don't want to have to consider you as dead to them, but they will have to because that's what the faith dictates.

James H: 12:00

Yeah, and I can imagine that's a huge burden to bear completely unnecessary that should fall on you. In that scenario, I wonder, would you mind describing what being disfellowshipped means for those of us who are not familiar?

George: 12:13

So there are different ways of leaving the witnesses. There's what I did, which is called fading, where you just stop going and you don't actually get formally excommunicated or disfellowshipped. That can be difficult. If you do anything they consider as wrong, and I'm now happily married to my wife, which is very wrong. So that's certainly grounds for disfellowshipping. But, like I said, because I moved away, I was able to avoid that.

George: 12:41

One of the unwritten rules, basically, is that if you're not having any contact with your congregation, they tend not to do anything about it. But if you're disfellowshipped, there will be an announcement to say that your name, george, is no longer a member of Jehovah's Witnesses, and then everybody knows that they should shun you, and by that I mean they will cross the street to avoid you. They will have nothing to do with you. This is where I think high control religions really can do a lot of damage, because a lot of it is about your conscience, how you interpret the rules. So if you're someone that's quite relaxed about things, you can have quite an easy time, but if you're someone who feels very strongly that this religion is right and this religion is important and you must follow the rules, your life is going to be very constrained. So with the disfellowshipping, technically your family can have a non-religious contact with you. There was a case in Canada where the Jehovah's Witness lawyer said this in a court of law that normal family relations continue. However, in reality, for most people, they will be completely shunned by their family. I know people who've been kicked out if they were still living at home. I know parents whose children no longer speak to them, or vice versa, because the family just decide no, we want nothing to do with you. You have now gone against God, but it's just that announcement.

George: 14:09

And if you choose to leave, exactly the same announcement is made. So if you disassociate yourself, exactly the same announcement is made. And one of the reasons for that is over the blood issue. Jehovah's Witnesses do not accept blood transfusion and it used to be that if you accepted blood you were automatically disfellowshipped. This obviously puts a lot of undue pressure on and was not considered very good under the British system and the American system. So they changed the rules that if you accept a blood transfusion, you've now automatically disassociated yourself. So you have chosen to leave the faith by having a blood transfusion, but exactly the same announcement is made. So the people who know you at the Kingdom Hall don't know whether you've disassociated or been disfellowshipped. The same event you will be shunned, and it's incredibly hard, incredibly hard for people for people.

James H: 15:04

Yeah, and I thank you very much for sharing, george and I think this idea of shunning is one again that I think is not very well understood outside of those who work in this area. It's a term that doesn't sound, or it's used in common language, right to shun someone, so I don't think it gets across the severity and the longevity of it as a punishment. Just does anybody else have experience with that and can explain more what it's? What it's like?

Leena: 15:29

lena, I think you're about to come in yeah, the best way that I can describe it is that it's almost like a social death penalty. Like religions, you have the actual death penalty for that causes bodily harm, but also the social death penalty can be as severe and can have lasting consequences.

James H: 15:46

Yeah, I think that's probably a good way to look at it. Okay, let's talk about some of the support systems that are in place for people leaving high control groups, particularly here in the UK. These support systems have been crucial in all your journeys and I know now you're actively involved with Faith to Faithless. I know now you're actively involved with Faith to Faithless. Lina, if I could come to you first, could you talk through the groups that were supportive or the resources that were available to you as you sought to go through this very challenging journey at the same time as seeking asylum here in the UK?

Leena: 16:16

Yeah. In short, I don't know how I would have done it without the support that I've received yeah, from my friends and also from Faith to Faithless. The role has been instrumental in helping me navigate all of the different challenges and when you're leaving high control, religion being separated from your family, claiming asire in a different country, you've got challenges on almost every front, whether it's with your family, navigating the legal system, financial difficulties, navigating all of the emotional difficulties in terms of grief, emotional blackmail, and there's a lot of trauma involved as well. So, with Faith to Faithless, they've helped me since day one with all of these challenges, starting from finding the right lawyer for me, introducing me to the incredible community, giving me the chance to contribute and give back to the same community, which has helped me a lot as well. Sorry, I'm like it's a lot, I don't know where to start.

James H: 17:15

No problem, we'll try and draw some more out in the conversation, sarah, how about for you? What ways has finding community provided a support and resources along your journey?

Sara: 17:23

When I first left I felt like completely alone. That was eight years ago now and I remember eating just regular food for the first time. So like a big part of Judaism is this kind of strict diet and so, as a result of the dishes possibly having touched food that is not kosher, you basically like can't eat at anyone else's house who isn't also keeping that strict kosher rules and you can't really eat at restaurants unless they're like certified kosher and all this stuff. So when I went to college which is the first time in our community where you're allowed to be in this very secular environment, because I had gone to Jewish schools my whole life and then I went to secular college and I remember eating just regular food in the cafeteria and just like wanting to tear up because it was like one of the first times I had ever done that, realizing nobody around me could possibly understand like they're, just like eating their food and even the things like turning lights on saturday. It's like nobody like for everyone else this is just saturday and this was like the first time ever breaking these rules for me. So it was like a very lonely experience and I think I was like emotionally unwell for honestly, like several years, because a huge part of that was like the isolation and just trying to like pretend. I was suddenly like exactly like everyone else, like all the non-Jewish people around me and just trying to pretend as if my upbringing didn't happen. This worked a bit for the beginning, but it also took a toll on me, I think mentally, and I think I sought out a called like the Recovering from Religion Helpline. I felt like extremely isolated and I think faith to faithless doesn't exist in the States as far as I know. I had looked and so when I did move to the UK for work about a year ago, that was like one of the things I knew I wanted and I needed. I had actually sought the support of a counselor at first who like specialized in people leaving religions because it just felt like it was something I went through and then kept trying to like live this regular secular person life.

Sara: 19:38

But then I'm still in touch with my family. I still have a lot of expectations as a result of where I grew up and I think there can be that degree of shunning in Jewish communities. In my particular community, I think that level of shunning would only really happen if, like you, married outside the faith or something like that. So it's not always the case.

Sara: 19:59

But as I get older and the fact that I'm not married becomes weirder, it's becoming harder and harder to kind of hide and keep it under the rug and have my family just think I'm less religious and not realize the full extent of how not religious I am, like all those things I think were just getting me alive and, to be honest, still do to some extent. And yeah, I think having faith to faithless and going to the meetups and at least knowing that there are other people who can understand what it's like to have those expectations from family, to have changed your worldview so much, I think was really helpful, because I used to be a deeply religious person and sometimes some of my secular friends just can't understand that and they've never been a deeply religious person who believed in all the rules. So I'm really glad that faith to faithless exists.

James H: 20:50

I think there's some really interesting points in there. Thank you for mentioning recovering from religion foundation in the States as well. We will link to their details as well as the details of faith to faithless in the show notes. But I love this point around being able to share food with others.

James H: 21:04

This seems to be a really common theme in terms of having diverse communities, and being able to empathize with others is to get around break bread together, and it's one of the things that when we organize interfaith dialogue, we'll often make sure that there is some food representing the culture of the other group that we're having dialogue with, because it really helps that feeling of everyone being similar together we're all the same and sharing in each other's community. So I can see what that would be such an emotional experience for you. So thank you for sharing that. And, yeah, it's lovely to hear that actually face-to-face, that continued support for people, no matter what stage of their transition they are at, and that these communities can still make an impact. And speaking of which, george, we mentioned in the intro that obviously you're helping grow new communities around the UK and set these up, if you'd like to briefly touch on how Faith to Faithless helped you in your transition, but also what's inspired starting these new groups and what you hope to achieve.

George: 22:05

Faith to Faithless didn't help me with my transition. I had already transitioned but I think Sarah's point about how long this goes on is where Faith to Faithless helps me. Now. I came across Faith to Faithless because they did apostasy training at the university that I was working at and I went along to that and thought, my goodness, I need to get involved in this and that's where I started. And I went along to that and thought, my goodness, I need to get involved in this and that's where I started and we started the first social group outside of London.

George: 22:34

Now I find again I attend the social groups also as a user, particularly on the online groups, and there are times when I am going through something specific that I need to be able to talk about with people who will understand, even though I've now been out 10 plus years. Things come up. You've got funerals, you've got family events, you've got ex-friends maybe who might have a baby, and you realize on social media, other people are talking about something that you've now been completely cut from and these things come up all the time and you need to be able to talk about them with people who understand. So that's where it helps me now and why I feel so strongly about being a part of Faith to Faithless? Because I see how all of us, from our different backgrounds, have so many of the same experiences. We have the same coercion, the same pressures on us to conform. A lot of us again.

George: 23:33

As Sarah said, we were deeply religious. I was completely indoctrinated. I absolutely believed that there was a flood four and a half thousand years ago, that Adam and Eve were created 6,000 years ago, that God was going to step in and slaughter the world so that we could have a paradise, and I preached this and people find it very hard to understand. How can you possibly believe that You're an intelligent person?

George: 23:57

But the indoctrination speaking about that with other people who understand what it's like from childhood to be given this one-sided view of the world and not being allowed to question it, to believe what you are told by the people around you because they love you. That's so important and why I set up the social groups is because I've realized how important that is. When I moved to Cambridgeshire, I attended the local LGBT group for a coffee morning. Just got chatting to someone and I mentioned Faith to Faithless, because I will mention it at the drop of a hat and the person I was talking to said oh, I come from exclusive Plymouth Brethren. My family completely shunned me for being gay, didn't know Faith to Faithless existed. So that's why it's important, because now that person attends as a user and has discovered that there is this community of people who understand where they're coming from congratulations on spreading the good work of face of faithless as you are.

James H: 24:55

We were recently at the humanist uk convention and again obviously fundraising for faith to faithless and there's just so much support but again, I think, even within the humanist community so much lack of understanding of how widespread an issue this is, I do think it's still taboo to talk about in the uk.

Leena: 25:12

Yeah, I guess that's a call to action to just mention faith to faithless or mention that these things still exist, lena, please yeah, I just wanted to mention that within this community that faith faithless has, one of the most incredible aspects about is how deep the connections and relationships are that you develop with people. So not only do you have a shared past and sometimes present view of your future, but also it's not about the trauma that you've experienced, but it's also about how most of us want to move on and live our lives and we share that passion for life and freedom and move on and live our lives. And we share that passion for life and freedom and open kind of questioning and curiosity about the world that we were deprived of. So, as a result, creates some of the most deep, incredible, amazing relationships with like-minded people now.

James H: 26:01

It's wonderful to hear, and I guess there's a bit of a challenge, though, in terms of getting the message out to the people who could actually benefit from the service, because of many of the issues that we've already mentioned in terms of they might not even feel that they should even be questioning these things. They may have the doubts, but to even look for support might be causing great distress. What have you found are the best ways to reach people, or that people have found faith to faithless I'm thinking of anyone listening is potentially thinks they may know someone who could benefit from the service. What's a good way, perhaps, to let them know that it's available?

Leena: 26:38

lena, and then george so for most of people it's been mainly online. So I would say and it's something that we could work on a faith to faithless to promote and have a better online presence for people. But what I find in many cases is that for us people who are part of Faith to Faithless, to come out and to share our experiences, not necessarily on a podcast like that or like on giving a talk or anything like that, but even like with our conversations with people and, like in many cases I've had people be like yes, cases I've had people be like yes, I've had a similar experience. Can I join this community? And that was like in many different kind of social contexts, like even parties.

James H: 27:16

So, yeah, it's, it's about us as well, sharing our experiences and coming out and I guess that can be quite daunting first few times that you do, but I hope it gets easier as you share it with more people.

George: 27:27

George, Also, Faith to Faithless now has a phone line, so if someone is just starting that process of questioning, it can be good that they can talk to someone anonymously. It's just over the phone and this is someone who is not only trained but who usually has lived experience of a high control, a high demand religion.

James H: 27:49

Thank you, Sarah.

Sara: 27:51

Something I would say that might be helpful is I think most people when they leave religions in the beginning, from talking to people they turn to people who left the same religion. I definitely was like when I was 18 and first left. I was like desperately trying to find communities online of formerly Orthodox Jews and there actually was a big Facebook group that I found and like eventually had the courage to join after a year and then I think that was a huge outlet for me was being there. But I think also one of the reasons people are seeking out faith to faithless is we all grew up in religions most of us where we were not encouraged to talk to people from other religions. So there's something like particularly healing talking to in my religion.

Sara: 28:40

I was constantly told like assimilation is the worst thing assimilation and you know there's a huge pressure in Judaism of you don.

Sara: 28:47

In Judaism, I think just the history of Judaism being a minority religion among both the Muslim and Christian world there's a lot of pressure not to assimilate and not to socialize too much with people who are not of the same religion.

Sara: 29:01

So I think it was very healing for me to speak to Lina and realize we have more in common, despite me growing up very religious Zionist and her growing up Muslim. We would have been told as children to not talk to each other and then realizing we have this incredibly similar journey and our religions in a lot of ways are more similar than different, and I think what I might want to do is possibly advertise on those forums I'm sure you guys are, but also as well for online communities that are specific to specific religions, which makes sense in the beginning, like you will want to talk to people who've gone through the same specific issues with your specific religion, but I also know that there's lots of people who would be so curious, and so I also find it very healing to talk to people from other religions who have left.

James H: 29:51

Nina.

Leena: 29:52

Yeah, I just wanted to thank you, Sarah, and also George. These two are examples of the incredible people that I met through Faithless, which I've been very lucky to meet and be friends with. So, yeah, thank you. Oh yeah, Thank you.

James H: 30:03

And I love this common thread that's come out as well, that the idea that, whilst you may have all been raised with very specific sets of beliefs and a definition that your particular group's beliefs are the correct ones and you shouldn't associate with the other false beliefs actually a lot of the messages and techniques sound very similar, and I do think it's wonderful to see when people all come together and realise that we do have more in common, and that seems to be. A lot of the groups are scared of the realization that we are all human. We do have so much in common, and actually there's a lot that can be gained by creating these diverse groups. So thank you all for sharing, and so I think, before we wrap up, I'd love to find out a little bit more about future plans and what we'd like to see from Faith to Faithless. George, as we mentioned, you're setting up these local groups. How do you envisage more of these regional groups impacting apostates or anyone questioning our leading religion around the UK?

George: 30:55

I can only echo what's already been said about how important it is to talk to other people and realise that you are not alone. I think Lena said at the very start how lonely the process of leaving your faith is, particularly when you start to doubt and you've got no one you can talk to because you're too scared of the consequences. So then, when you have a community to discuss your journey and the issues that come up, it's so important faith to faithless have regular online socials, which they started for covid, but they've kept going because quite often we are dotted around the country and it can be hard to bring people together. And what I found is when you can get people together face to face again, you've got that sense of community that you just don't get on an online meeting. One of the reasons that I've been able to set up different groups around the country is purely because, due to jobs, I've had to move, so I've set a group up and then had to move, left that group in the very capable hands of another volunteer and gone somewhere else. So now I'm in Cambridgeshire.

George: 32:02

I'm in the process of setting up groups here and in Leicester, because it's just next door, in the process of setting up groups here and in Leicester because it's just next door and again, it's just finding people who realize that having that social support, having that peer support, people who really understand what you've gone through, can make your journey and the continued sense of loneliness that you get.

George: 32:25

I don't think it goes away because it is such a traumatic, overwhelming experience, particularly when you've lost people that are important to you. You might then develop friends, you might then develop a community, but you still have got that loss of the people that meant something to you. That's what I like to do and I like to be able to support these groups as I go along. And it was lovely at the Humanist Conference last weekend to catch up with some of my friends from these different groups that I've set up that I hadn't seen for a while and see how they were getting on. And the groups are ongoing and again more people are coming to find out about them and come along to them.

James H: 33:05

Our community is so important and they take work to cultivate. So thank you for all the work you've done setting up all these groups around the UK. Sarah, from your perspective, what do you hope to achieve through your involvement with faithless and perhaps changing social attitudes?

Sara: 33:19

I'll just touch on what George said, because I felt that particularly the topic of family is something that and feeling like your relationships with people are just permanently different and that sense of loss is something that I could really relate to. It does feel like that kind of you'll probably deal with that. I imagine that I will deal with that to some extent for the rest of my life, and so will most of the people at Faith to Faithless at Faith to Faithless. So I think all of us are really looking for some kind of alternative and some kind of alternative community and family, and I guess my hope is something like Faith to Faithless can be that for the people who need it.

James H: 33:58

Thank you and Lina, given your journey with Faith to Faithless to this point, and I know you're very actively involved in promoting what would you like to see within terms of the future of the group, but also helping other apostates and, as we mentioned, changing societal understanding and perceptions yeah, I hope to do more of what George is doing and very good at just like starting groups wherever she goes.

Leena: 34:23

I think we need more that up and down the country, and also, I would say to to improve our online presence and to offer more resources for people. Not everyone is capable of coming to the in-person socials and many people don't feel very comfortable in a kind of online meeting environment. So it's just to diversify the services that we offer, the resources that we offer people and, yeah, the most common complaint that we get is that what you do is great but we need more, which is, in a way, a compliment.

James H: 34:55

I'm always glad to hear that, but yeah, that's a good position to be in and I just wondered is there any message you'd have for perhaps whether it's government or coverage of these types of topics in terms of helping to increase the level of understanding nationally? Does anyone have anything they'd like to see in terms of a to increase the level of understanding nationally? Does anyone have anything they'd like to see in terms of a change that we could make in society that would make it easier for people to leave or to find groups like faith to make for us?

Leena: 35:21

luna and sarah I would say more. More education and spreading awareness is something that many apostates mentioned about going to official government bodies like the police or their GP and explaining the struggles that they've been having and the challenges, and they just wouldn't know how to help these people and many of these kind of official bodies have never heard of Faith to Faithless or any other charities that help people in that specific situation. Like in most cases, they would just end up sending them to protecting women against violence charities which can help the same ways, but in these cases you need more specialized help with people who understand your particular situation yes, that's right.

James H: 36:05

I have heard of cases where actually they'll get referred back either to their parents or to, perhaps, the religious leader in the group, which is obviously not helpful. Sarah, do you have something to add?

Sara: 36:16

Yeah, I guess two things. I feel like one it does feel like this apostasy thing is. It feels like it's less understood in global culture or Western culture. Like, I think, if people tell a story about how they got kicked out of their homes, people are aware that happens, and I think there is less awareness of, oh, people are also and a lot of times these intersect, and people are queer and they're religious, and how big the role that religion can play in getting people ostracized, or that people are so delicate and sensitive and want to be religiously tolerant that they don't talk about it too much, which I understand.

Sara: 36:54

But I wish we could get to this level of social acceptance. I would love to see it like the way that now, today, because of the work that activists did in the 2010s to get gay rights as something that is mainstream and accepted, I would like to see that same mentality for the average mainstream society accepts that, oh, it's not okay to be in a religion that's super high control, because I sometimes felt that there's some degree of, especially with religions like mine that do try to pretend that they're like normal in some way and I think there's a lot of religions that do that and tell you why. Yes, we control this thing and that thing, but it's our freedom of religion and you shouldn't interfere. I want there to be. I think I'm, like, big proponent of freedom of religion, but I would like to see it so that the choice of an individual child, like any group that is expecting that those same choices are made by their children and literally hindering their relationship with their children upon whether those choices are made, I feel like that needs to be less socially accepted, like when people are willing to cut off or distrust their children for not following the same rules.

Sara: 38:02

And on the opposite end of things, I also did feel like there are definitely branches of very vocal atheists who talk about this stuff a lot, and I actually found them to be really difficult for me when I was leaving, because I felt like they condescended to religious people so much and I was a religious person for some of the time when I was listening to them or even when I was questioning and I had stopped being religious. Everyone I loved was still religious. So hearing people talk about religious people like they're stupid or they're not smart or they're just really oppressive, bad people because they believe in such and such laws that are oppressive. But I think it's really important to detach that from how you talk about people, and I think I would have been more comfortable leaving as well if I felt that there was like I don't know if I'm articulating what I want to say.

James H: 38:56

I think that's all beautifully said and some really important points there. I totally agree. I think the aggressive, patronizing tone that some of these conversations can take from the non-believer point of view is detrimental, and I think the two things you mentioned are linked together. There isn't the emotional resonance with those who are struggling with leaving their faith in the same way as others with other social issues, partly because people do see it as a deeply private matter and they want to respect freedom of belief that aren't really seeing freedom of belief for the individual rather than freedom of belief of the group. I mean, it's not something that we should interfere with, but I agree, I think that tone of just attacking people or patronizing their views is certainly detrimental.

James H: 39:34

I heard someone say it's not like they became any more intelligent when they changed their mind on something. They just changed their mind and I think that's the way we need to view it and we have to create a comfortable path and a phrase I like a soft landing place for people, rather than making it such a hard decision. And that comes from both sides. If we just paint it as a binary thing, it's much harder to make the jump from one side to the other. Sorry, george, did you have your hand up?

George: 39:59

Yeah, one change that I would like to see is around education, but not education about high control religions, but about education itself, because a lot of us had our education curtailed. People who went to religious schools had a very specific education. People were homeschooled. Jehovah's Witnesses do not encourage higher education, so you're largely expected to leave school at the first opportunity and start your preaching full-time, if at all possible.

George: 40:29

I know so many people who will come from these high-, high demand religions want an education, and it can be much harder when you're an older person. You've got financial responsibilities. You might not have GCSEs, A-levels, things like that, to then go. How do I continue my education? So I would like there to be some support for people who've come from these faith backgrounds to be able to access education in a way that will really help them. Because, again, if you've come from a faith where you've been told that everyone who is outside of your faith is evil and satanic and you should not have anything to do with them, they will stab you in the back. They are worldly. How do you then make friends when you start at university? How do you then make friends when you start at university? How do you then? Yeah, so I would like there to be something to support people with education if they want to get back into it and maybe continue what they were not allowed to do the work that you are all doing is creating a great resource for people.

James H: 41:28

So I do want to take this opportunity again to thank you all for the great work that you're doing in building communities, in supporting others and just in sharing your stories. I think has been said a couple of times the more people are open and talk about this, the more it's normalized and hopefully, more people realize the extent of the issue.

Leena: 41:45

Create that pathway for people, lena it's all about helping the past days with the catching up that they've got to do. So it's not just with education, but it's also with life experiences and fun, and people sometimes forget about supporting apostates in that way help them explore music and different foods that they never managed to have again.

James H: 42:15

It's about moving on from the trauma, but also living life to the fullest and, yeah, many of us experience that feeling of this urgency to like catch up on everything we missed out on, so it's a great way to support them that's a wonderful message to close with and, once again, thank you all for the fantastic work you're doing and just sharing your stories, highlighting the journeys that you've been on and now creating this community and safe space for others to do the same. So, just before we go, we have our standard closing question. I'd like to ask for a volunteer to share something that they've changed their mind on recently. So does anyone have something to nominate? George?

George: 42:52

I decided to go vegetarian yesterday after spending a long time just mentally going back and forth in my mind. I had a cousin stay with me who was vegan and I love vegetarian food. I used to be vegetarian as a teenager in my early 20s and then just got back into eating meat. But I was thinking to myself yesterday I'd watched a youtube video of cows and just thought you know what? I can't do this anymore. I cannot do it anymore. I am going vegetarian. So that was my change yesterday.

James H: 43:25

Apparently, he's glad that we had chicken together last time we hang out and I I realize the irony of asking this particular panel to name something that they've changed their mind on. I appreciate we've probably dwelled on that for quite some time already. But thank you very much for sharing, george, and we will be checking back in. We're coming to you one day into this, so I think we're going to have to have you on in six months or a year and see if it's still being maintained. But once again, thank you all, not only for joining here today, but for everything that you're doing with Faith to Faithless.

James H: 43:53

We will include links to everything that's being discussed today. If you are looking for support or know someone who could use support, please do contact Faith to Faithless or I'm sure there are other groups in whichever country around the world or, if not, contact and we will put you in touch with relevant services. Thank you all once again, not only for sharing your stories and experiences here today, but also for your continued work to build these communities and help support others through this very challenging time and, by the sounds of it, coding a really positive, supportive and educational forum as well. We will include links to Faith to Faithless If you know of anybody who is dealing with these issues or you yourself are looking for support, please do get in touch. They're a fantastic team I cannot recommend them enough and you'll get to chat with lovely people like our panel here today. Sarah, lina, george, thank you very much for joining us on Humanism Now.

Leena: 44:47

Thank you, thank you, thank you.